Thornhill

[Disparishun]

The new condos add density but it's just suburban sprawl. I know friends who live in the area and nobody walks around anywhere. I know people who live in the North Disera buildings and they wont even to Promenade mall, it's too 'far'! They drive to the mall, and they drive to the No Frills. They may walk to Walmart, but that's about it.

The problem is that there's no streetwall along the way -- it's a boring, windswept walk.

That said, these condos are part of the solution, not part of the problem. This is one of the denser suburban areas, and it's a start. It's far from perfect, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.

I also find it amusing that people in Thornhill are complaining about lack of parks. There aren't any good parks in Thornhill anyways, just small patches of grass or childrens playgrounds.

Wrong, obviously, but it's true that for parks like Yorkhill, Winding Lane, etc., there isn't much citizen involvement like there often is in the yuppier young-parent-ish areas downtown. That's something that would be worth fostering.

The big problem is traffic, and its about to get a lot worse with the added density. They should do a survey of who takes transit here. I'd bet it's mostly students.

I agree about traffic being a huge problem that's about to get worse. I am told that Vaughan is reconsidering basement apartments, which is good, but will further stress the current system. Comments above about creating grids are exactly right. I'd go so far as to say that it's at least as important as public transit at this point -- there just aren't through streets. Pushing this through will be a hard battle, especially given how fast people zoom down residential streets even now wherever there aren't speed bumps. But it is a necessary battle.

On who takes transit, there are obviously lots and lots who aren't students, and I'm not sure the mix is much different than on the TTC, where students are also overrepresented. But, realistically, as long as the double fare is in place, those with the means to avoid it will do so.

 

[lead82]

The parks people mentioned in Thornhill are basically sports parks. There are few parks to ride your bike on a nice and long trail, something akin to G Ross Park or Earl Bales. I like parks with long trails so that I can walk/bike and enjoy nature. The Thornhill parks I've been too are mostly for sporting acitivites for kids, but there really isn't much interesting walks around. The only little park I like is the one near the historical buildings just west of Yonge/Centre street. The pond park would be good if the trail went all around it instead of just having one podium for viewing the pond like at the south end.

Anyway, my point was that Thornhill missed an opportunity to create an urban district near Bathurst/Centre, and instead created a strange hodge-podge of big box stores, strip malls, and a strange Disneyland like retail strip with wide but empty sidewalks on Disera Drive.

Disparishun you have an excellent point about the lack of street-wall or street-presence of buildings along the main streets. That's why no one walks here, and that's not changing with these developments. This is just suburban intensification at its worst. I much prefer the Markham Centre model, which is developing a mixed-use downtown with street-presence, an urban park, and pedestrian friendly zones. Thornhill could have done something similar. I'm hoping that Vaughan doesn't continue with these kinds of failed urban developments in the Vaughan centre area.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I basically agree with lead82 but would add a few qualifications.
Vaughan (as I recall) fought for a few years with Smart Centres to get them to create what is now on Disera as well as the modified Wal Mart. Yeah, it's still a big box with a big parking lot but it's less than they wanted to build.

If the condo residents think that Promenade is really "too far" to walk, they only have themselves to blame. It's perfectly reasonable distance and a decent environment along Disera. It's too short a strip to have a downtown vibe but I think you have to give them points for effort. You can't compare it to Markham Centre which was developed from scratch over more than a decade. This was a prime patch in the centre of Thornhill, surrounded by longstanding development and owned basically entirely by Liberty and Smart Centres; the city had to respond to a development application and did their best. You can say they fell short but you can't compare it to Markham Centre (or even Vaughan Metropolitan Centre).

And the stores were still opening there last summer; this year will be more of a test of whether it becomes any kind of pedestrian destination.

 

[BMO]

to add to TJ, I believe that the promenade could potentially serve, in the future, as something more than just a commercial centre maybe a community asset of sorts from which the whole Thornhill community is centred upon, I think that would essentially create a sort of a downtown Thornhill if you will. In fact i'd say a good chunk of the existing parking lot is empty very often, It would be really nice if they could get rid of the ring road and create a whole grid-like street pattern centred around the mall with a mix of residential, retail and commercial buildings.

 

[Dan416]

I keep hearing about all these traffic problems in York Region. Mississauga is bigger than York, and while we do have traffic, I wouldn't say it's out of control or overly bad. Looking at Google Maps of York, the arterial road system looks incomplete. Mississauga's grid of concession roads has actually been broken up somewhat over the years, but there are arterial roads in place, still some planned (e.g. Creekbank/Netherhart, Ridgeway over the 403). Mississauga also has multiple highways (QEW, 401, 403, 407, 410) whereas York only has the 400, 404, 407, 427. Actually that's pretty equal. Nevermind. But anyway, in a way it's good for York region in that traffic is becoming a real problem and it's leading to the push for things like the Yonge extension.

 

[kettal]

The problem is that they built so many factories around the 407, anticipating that the trucks would use the new highway. But then, the 407 tolls became unaffordable to trucks, so the trucks started clogging up all the other roads.

 

[Epi]

I keep hearing about all these traffic problems in York Region. Mississauga is bigger than York, and while we do have traffic, I wouldn't say it's out of control or overly bad. Looking at Google Maps of York, the arterial road system looks incomplete. Mississauga's grid of concession roads has actually been broken up somewhat over the years, but there are arterial roads in place, still some planned (e.g. Creekbank/Netherhart, Ridgeway over the 403). Mississauga also has multiple highways (QEW, 401, 403, 407, 410) whereas York only has the 400, 404, 407, 427. Actually that's pretty equal. Nevermind. But anyway, in a way it's good for York region in that traffic is becoming a real problem and it's leading to the push for things like the Yonge extension.

Thornhill's traffic problems is entirely based on the fact that it's a residential community and contains very little employment.

Add to the fact that it's not at all near any north-south highways, it makes it even worse. For those people who don't work in the east (Markham's high tech area) or west (Airport/Mississauga) where the 407/Highway 7 are good options, they basically have to use Dufferin/Bathurst/Yonge/Bayview to go south to downtown if that's where they work. Since all of those streets are 2-lanes (Yonge effectively has 2 lanes during rush hour) within the City of Toronto traffic effectively backs up forever.

If the 407 were free, a lot more people would probably travel a bit north to the 407, then go to the 400 (which doesn't get you downtown anyway) or the 404.

The only transit way to go downtown from Thornhill is to go to Finch, and basically that's what most commuters end up doing, which is either getting dropped off to the Steeles bus/Finch station, or driving to park at Finch. Because of the aforementioned backing up of traffic, all transit or parking options to go to Finch are similarly backed up.

So really, there's basically 5 ways in Thornhill to get to work in the morning:
1) Drive to Finch Station
2) Take Dufferin/Allen Road (aka traffic hell)
3) Take the 404/DVP (aka traffic hell)
4) Take Highway 7 (increasingly not a highway but traffic hell)
5) Take 407 (which people avoid due to tolls)

This is vastly different from Missisauga which is it's own real city, with it's own centralized employment district where people can live close to their work places and go there from all directions.

 

[Dan416]

This is vastly different from Missisauga which is it's own real city, with it's own multiple employment districts where people can live close to their work places and go there from all directions.

Fixed that for you lol. But even with all the employment in Mississauga, tons of people still work downtown. I don't know how many drive, but a lot definitely take the GO train. That's where all the riders on the Milton line are coming from (not from Milton itself!)

As for Thornhill, what can they really do other than extend the subway up Yonge? It's a bit late to be looking at building new arterial roads. And Toronto won't be expanding its.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Thornhill could be a very different place today if it was an independent city and not cleaved in two and shared by Vaughan and Markham. It's interesting that the Markham side is mostly 'executive' housing with plans to dramatically intensify a few spots (Langstaff, Yonge near Steeles, Don Mills & Steeles), while Vaughan, the scapegoat of the GTA's sprawl problems, ended up with one of the densest suburban areas, with many residential towers and many streets crammed full of narrow houses and the opportunity to create an actual neighbourhood near Yonge & Steeles. If it was one city, the Yonge strip would surely be healthier today and perhaps there'd have been more pushes for office parks or colleges or anything like that - Vaughan and Markham see Thornhill as more of a residential neighbourhood and so little else is being done. Thornhill predates the highway, which explains why the 407 is not lined with big box stores and software firms near Bathurst or Bayview.

There's nothing terribly wrong with having some neighbourhoods mostly or entirely residential. Thornhill's traffic problems are partially the result of the hacked up road grid and partially the result of it lying in the zone where good transit basically comes to a screeching halt. The potential for ridership growth in Thornhill is immense and future projects will tap into this underserved area. Compare the roads in Thornhill (along with Vaughan and western North York) with roads in the western half of Scarborough. When arterials are only every 2km apart and some don't continue straight, that's a serious breach on the grid. You can take 7 to Centre to John to 14th, but it's not as easy as driving in a straight line without thinking and without turning. There's only so many ways to cross the 407 and the other highways and even links like Hilda to Atkinson are discontinuous. Now look at Scarborough, where arterials like Steeles and Sheppard run on almost forever and are assisted by long roads like Huntingwood and McNicoll and Progress. Look how many roads cross the 401...from Warden to McCowan, that's 6 crossings in only 4km, compared to just 3 crossings in the 4km from Bathurst to Bayview. Scarborough has almost no traffic, just a few well-known busy spots like the 'Mike Myers' strip of Kennedy.

 

[savevp]

First of all, I would like to say that as a resident of Thornhill, it is not so bad. I can walk to the Promenade and Disera Drive as well as the Atkinson Vivastation. Admittedly, there is an overabundance of cars and SUVs but that is probably because of the higher wealth and the perceived notion that wealthier people don't take the bus. In addition, due to complaints from my neighbourhood, busses do not run on Beverly Glen Blvd. which means that the thousand-or-so odd residents along that strip will drive. Unfortunately, that is typical high-wealth NIMBYism and the same reason you won't find as many busses in Forest Hill or Rosedale.

Nevertheless, I believe that the main problem with all of our suburban sprawl is the fact that it was built over concession roads. Each one is approximately 2km appart. Downtown, the arterial roads are much closer together and you can walk to shopping. This opens up 'ribbons' and eventually a streetwall. In the suburbs, with the greater distance between arterial roads, people drive and plazas form surrounding huge parking lots.

New Urbanism has come up recently, but unfortuanately developers are yet to wholeehartedly embrace this concept. With shops in the middle of subdivisions, it should promote walking. It does but many businesses do not do as well because they are smaller and family-owned with limited resources. And still, it is difficult to change the suburban attitude of driving everywhere.


One more problem. I enjoy riding my bike up Dufferin and this is encouraged by the new HOV lanes. Previously biking was a terrifying thing up here. Now the problem. Along Rutherford, Major Mack and Dufferin north of M.M., there are no sidewalks and riding your bike on the road with the huge SUVs and wide lanes of speeding traffic can scare you into never trying it again. I often bike to friend's houses along this stretch but it is difficult to contend with the traffic.

Hopefully, the added density will spur growth and new infrastructure devoted to pedestrians and transit-users rather than just drivers. That is the only way to change things.

 

[kettal]

I grew up in Thornhill, and I have no intention of ever returning there. To give you an idea of how exciting it is, here's what the "fun" thing to do at night amongst the teenagers: drive the ricer car mommy bought you to local Country Style parking lot and loiter there while consuming donuts and listening to trance music from the car stereo.

I much prefer to live in a more impoverished neighbourhood where not everything is about having a shinier, bigger house, and a larger plasma TV than your neighbour. And the bus actually runs on a decent schedule... and there are passengers in it.

I have to admit though, that modern sprawl is better designed than the pre-2000 crap. I guess the Filipino nannies can appreciate that it's easier to push baby to the park now.

 

[Disparishun]

I grew up in Thornhill, and I have no intention of ever returning there. To give you an idea of how exciting it is, here's what the "fun" thing to do at night amongst the teenagers: drive the ricer car mommy bought you to local Country Style parking lot and loiter there while consuming donuts and listening to trance music from the car stereo.

I much prefer to live in a more impoverished neighbourhood where not everything is about having a shinier, bigger house, and a larger plasma TV than your neighbour. And the bus actually runs on a decent schedule... and there are passengers in it.

I have to admit though, that modern sprawl is better designed than the pre-2000 crap. I guess the Filipino nannies can appreciate that it's easier to push baby to the park now.

I am sorry you are so upset about the way you grew up. I am also sorry this makes you feel as though you need to stereotype everyone in Thornhill in a little box. I hope that, eventually, you will learn to get over it.

As for me, obviously, I hope I will one day attain a shinier, bigger house, a gigantic plasma screen. We all need dreams! And, of course, I will continue to avoid YRT buses which, not because of the double fare, but because they appear to have passengers and schedules. That just ain't right. But where is the Country Style parking lot?

 

[Disparishun]

In addition, due to complaints from my neighbourhood, busses do not run on Beverly Glen Blvd. which means that the thousand-or-so odd residents along that strip will drive. Unfortunately, that is typical high-wealth NIMBYism and the same reason you won't find as many busses in Forest Hill or Rosedale.

Do you really think that the stupendous wealth of your Thornhill-Vaughan neighbourhood is what accounts for this? I would have thought this is fairly typical of most of the inner 905 and much of the outer 416. It turns out low-traffic cul de sacs are popular in the suburbs!

Hopefully, the added density will spur growth and new infrastructure devoted to pedestrians and transit-users rather than just drivers. That is the only way to change things.

I would like to think this, but it is a long haul. It seems to me that the role of a small number of developers is one of the problems -- when so much land is concentrated into the hands of a few developers who are risk-averse and profit-driven, there's not as much opportunity for change.

You know what one small thing I think could be helpful? Columns on urbanism, etc. in the local publications -- Thornhill Post, the Liberal, etc. It sounds odd, but it would be nice to get people actually focused on the idea of applying those ideas in Thornhill. To be frank, I think it never occurred to a lot of people. A lot of Thornhill is about the suburban dream -- you want a house, a backyard, all that. Alternative ideas need to be put forward about how those things could happen right here.

Otherwise, you end up with a whole generation of furious kettals who have no interest in investing any thought or energy in Thornhill. Communities can't get better that way.

 

[kettal]

I am sorry you are so upset about the way you grew up. I am also sorry this makes you feel as though you need to stereotype everyone in Thornhill in a little box. I hope that, eventually, you will learn to get over it.

As for me, obviously, I hope I will one day attain a shinier, bigger house, a gigantic plasma screen. We all need dreams! And, of course, I will continue to avoid YRT buses which, not because of the double fare, but because they appear to have passengers and schedules. That just ain't right. But where is the Country Style parking lot?

stereotyping is hilarious and fun.

 

[Dan416]

In Mississauga teenagers drive their souped up Honda Civics to any of the many, many Tim Hortons and hang out there every evening of the week. I guess there's nothing better to do in the 905 than hang around coffee shops eh?