The Future of Bombardier

[Admiral Beez]

@TheTigerMasterand it's really unfortunate that most Canadians never really supported Bombardier,

I think the Canadian public suffered from Bombardier fatigue. Hundreds of millions in government handouts, for a company that summarily offshores its production to Mexico and other ex-Canada locales, and then when taxpayers payout a further time, this time for the CS program, we see the whole lot sold off to the Euros and more of the production sent offshore.

And put aside aerospace, Canadians have supported Bombardier by giving them heavy and light rail transit contacts, including given near-exclusive access to the TTC and GoTrains. Is there anything on rails at the TTC that isn’t sole sourced from Bombardier? And what do we get in return? Late/non delivery of streetcars beset with quality issues, and further offshoring of production.

How much support does Bombardier deserve from Canadians? What should they do to earn further support?

 

[smallspy]

Is there anything on rails at the TTC that isn’t sole sourced from Bombardier?

The streetcars. Those went to tender, remember?

And I suppose we can also include the subway, for which Siemens offered a price almost 50% higher than what Bombardier offered.

Also, you vastly underestimate Bombardier's presence in Europe, where they are the second largest manufacturer.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The streetcars. Those went to tender, remember?

I’m not referring to the tender, you can ask a dozen companies for bids if you need to seek legitimacy of process. I’m saying everything on rails at TTC is solely sourced from Bombardier.

And I suppose we can also include the subway, for which Siemens offered a price almost 50% higher than what Bombardier offered.

Subways may be delivered on time, IDK, but on the streetcars, I’d be okay with paying more for on-time, well-assembled and designed vehicles. Instead we get Mexican junk that has to be crowbarred onto its chassis and then sent back for rework, whilst most of the fleet promised years ago has never materialized, only empty promises and more demands for public patience and handouts.

 

[drum118]

BBD future will be mostly in Europe since they have shot themselves badly in NA. Even now, they are down sizing in Europe.

Unless they are part of a P3 team, highly unlikely they will see another order for streetcars in NA, especially in the US. They have never got another order for their cars after the 2000's screw up of Minneapolis cars built in Mexico like TTC first few cars. Those cars are to be replace by Siemens who have and are suppling cars to Minneapolis since they can't operate with Siemens cars at all.

With CRRC now having a foot hold in the US with a plant and orders, outlook for BBD getting subway train orders is not that great. They have setup shop in Canada as well with an order for DD cars.

Unless things changes for the better, the outlook for DD cars in the US is all but dead. If open bids on future DD cars for GO and RER take place, cars could be coming from someone else.

 

[smallspy]

I’m not referring to the tender, you can ask a dozen companies for bids if you need to seek legitimacy of process. I’m saying everything on rails at TTC is solely sourced from Bombardier.

The term "sole-sourced" is a pretty specific term that denotes when a contract is not opened to a broader, competitive tendering process, and is instead allocated to a single company. That didn't happen with the streetcar tender.

You can say that all of Toronto's rolling stock for the past 20 years has been sourced from a single supplier - Bombardier - but to say that it's all been "sole-sourced" is incorrect.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You can say that all of Toronto's rolling stock for the past 20 years has been sourced from a single supplier - Bombardier - but to say that it's all been "sole-sourced" is incorrect.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I'll gladly say you're right if you need affirmation.

Speaking from outside the lexicon, I'll say the TTC has solely sourced everything on rails from BBR, and this has been part of our problem. BBR knows they can treat Toronto like crap, because they know the customer has massive psychological and legacy-minded switching costs. We've always bought our rolling stock from BBR or its predecessors from Thunder Bay. And we need to keep jobs in Thunder Bay.... So we must use Bombardier.

Oddly, other Canadian cities and most US cities don't share our predilections for the company and its products. Instead they're willing to pay more for better and/or onetime vehicles.

 

[Admiral Beez]

BBD future will be mostly in Europe since they have shot themselves badly in NA. Even now, they are down sizing in Europe.

Unless they are part of a P3 team, highly unlikely they will see another order for streetcars in NA, especially in the US. They have never got another order for their cars after the 2000's screw up of Minneapolis cars built in Mexico like TTC first few cars. Those cars are to be replace by Siemens who have and are suppling cars to Minneapolis since they can't operate with Siemens cars at all.

With CRRC now having a foot hold in the US with a plant and orders, outlook for BBD getting subway train orders is not that great. They have setup shop in Canada as well with an order for DD cars.

Unless things changes for the better, the outlook for DD cars in the US is all but dead. If open bids on future DD cars for GO and RER take place, cars could be coming from someone else.

And that's the great shame of this. With, for many years the ONLY streetcar plant in NA and decades of continued production and design in Thunder Bay, Bombardier should be the dominant player in NA's resurgent interest in street cars and LRTs.

It must be extremely frustrating to be a plant worker, engineer or sales person at BBR Thunder Bay when you see the mother company making decisions that kill the company's chances. No one was asking for cheap streetcars from Mexico! NA cities are willing to pay fair value for domestically or European produced units; so why did BBR tie its future to being the discount supplier to the market?

If Siemens bid for the TTC streetcar was 50% higher than BBR, why didn't the TTC ask how that spread was possible?

 

[drum118]

And that's the great shame of this. With, for many years the ONLY streetcar plant in NA and decades of continued production and design in Thunder Bay, Bombardier should be the dominant player in NA's resurgent interest in street cars and LRTs.

It must be extremely frustrating to be a plant worker, engineer or sales person at BBR Thunder Bay when you see the mother company making decisions that kill the company's chances. No one was asking for cheap streetcars from Mexico! NA cities are willing to pay fair value for domestically or European produced units; so why did BBR tie its future to being the discount supplier to the market?

If Siemens bid for the TTC streetcar was 50% higher than BBR, why didn't the TTC ask how that spread was possible?

I stand by my statement from day one, that BBD was going to get the order based on the fact QP was funding it and wanted to make sure there was work for Thunder Bay to protect seats in the house.

Siemens bid was to keep their foot in the door, knowing full well they wouldn't get the order in the first place. If they did my chance win the bid, they would be laughing all the way to the bank with a nice profit in their pocket.

Then, why didn't other supplier who took bid document out put a bid in?? Why would anyone spend $$ preparing a bid when they knew there was no chance getting the order based on how funding was being dictated by QP as to the supplier was to be in the first place?? With the great Metrolinx mess, the door is now open to everyone as well under the new trade agreement for Canada. Alstom is now in Canada with 2 orders on the books.

Why is Siemens the dominant player for LRV's the last 10 years, who hold about 80% of the US market these days??

 

[Admiral Beez]

With the great Metrolinx mess, the door is now open to everyone as well under the new trade agreement for Canada. Alstom is now in Canada with 2 orders on the books.

And perhaps that is Bombardier's largest and longest lasting benefit to Ontario and Canada, that through their incompetence they've given Canadian cities the ability to globally source their railed transit vehicles. Even better if those global vendors build their plants, even if only for the length of the project in NA.

And.... Let's hope Bombardier learns from their experience and improve their offering. Or sell Thunder Bay to Siemens-Alstrom.

 

[smallspy]

Oddly, other Canadian cities and most US cities don't share our predilections for the company and its products. Instead they're willing to pay more for better and/or onetime vehicles.

You mean like GO Transit? Or NJT and the former AMT? MARC seems to be quite enamored with its MultiLevel cars....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dowlingm]

I stand by my statement from day one, that BBD was going to get the order based on the fact QP was funding it and wanted to make sure there was work for Thunder Bay to protect seats in the house.

A pretty short sighted idea given that the Thunder Bay region only has two seats, and TB is beyond the western boundary of TB-Superior North, and at the time of the tender there were thousands of recently unemployed GTA auto sector workers who could have sought positions on a GTA assembly line.

 

[dowlingm]

You mean like GO Transit? Or NJT and the former AMT? MARC seems to be quite enamored with its MultiLevel cars....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

And the bilevel operators listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_BiLevel_Coach#Operators

 

[Admiral Beez]

You mean like GO Transit?,

No, I mean like all the US cities buying street cars and LRTs that are eschewing BBR. Look at them all, right in Bombardier’s back yard, and yet very few, and even fewer upcoming BBR vehicles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lig...t_rail_systems_operating_in_the_United_States

So, yes, let’s hope BBR doesn't screw up its heavy rail business like GoTransit and the bi-level biz, since that does seem to have a glimmer of hope.

Is Amtrak buying BBR units? IIRC, they chose Alstom for the NEC and Avelia service. What about VIA's new trainset plans, is BBR in the running? Thunder Bay made the current ones.

 

[lenaitch]

A pretty short sighted idea given that the Thunder Bay region only has two seats, and TB is beyond the western boundary of TB-Superior North, and at the time of the tender there were thousands of recently unemployed GTA auto sector workers who could have sought positions on a GTA assembly line.

So, what? Sacrifice jobs in TBay (and/or Kingston) to accommodate unemployed in TO?

 

[M636RF]

Unless things changes for the better, the outlook for DD cars in the US is all but dead. If open bids on future DD cars for GO and RER take place, cars could be coming from someone else.

There are a few existing customers who are talking about coming back for more, but I don't see big orders coming anytime soon. NJT has long been rumored to be looking at an EMU version of the Multilevel, but nothing serious has happened yet.

MARC seems to be quite enamored with its MultiLevel cars....

They do like them a lot, although the delivery of the cars was delayed, and the cab cars took a long time to enter service because modifications had to be made. MARC has a bit of a relationship with Bombardier. They operate two of the three lines, and they have been involved in refurbishment work as well. They contracted Bombardier to refurbish the MARC IIB and MARC III cars, and more recently BBR has been upgrading the HHP-8s with the hope of improving their reliability.

What about VIA's new trainsee plans, is BBR in the running? Thunder Bay made the current ones.

Bombardier will probably put in a bid, but I think that Siemens is in the best position to win. The RFP wants proposals to include both locomotives and rolling stock, which Bombardier could provide themselves without entering into a joint bid.