lenaitch
Senior Member
They probably said that about oil at some point.Hydrogen when created from saltwater and renewables is effectively infinite
They probably said that about oil at some point.Hydrogen when created from saltwater and renewables is effectively infinite
What is finite in this equation?They probably said that about oil at some point.
The problem to me is that once water becomes a commodity on an industrial scale, all bets are off. At 50-55Kw/Kg, do the math for energy input required. Countries that don't have access to seawater will go after fresh water to participate in the market. It will be little different than the current petroleum industry. When great gobs of money are involved, ethics regarding ground water, 'glacier farming', etc. become topics.
I don't consider water as a 'renewable' because it is being chemically destroyed in the process. Wind power converts kinetic energy, but the air is unchanged. Solar panels chemically convert radiant energy that would otherwise simply get absorbed by the earth's surface (I suppose the source is finite, but not because of human consumption).
Water for hydrogen synthesis would be a tiny slice of water for industrial or agricultural uses. And in most cases it would be converted back to water in relatively short order to release the chemical energy. That would be by using it in a fuel cell or burning it directly.No doubt there is a lot of water - in all of its states. CalTech estimates about 326 million trillion gallons; about 97% being saltwater. Best as I can tell the general scientific consensus is that it is a closed system, although there was one online article I saw that posited computer modelling suggests the earth can create it deep in the core.
According to Wiki, electrolyzing hydrogen out of water takes about 50-55Kw of energy to create 1 Kg of hydrogen. They say that is relatively efficient - I'll take their word for it.
The problem to me is that once water becomes a commodity on an industrial scale, all bets are off. At 50-55Kw/Kg, do the math for energy input required. Countries that don't have access to seawater will go after fresh water to participate in the market. It will be little different than the current petroleum industry. When great gobs of money are involved, ethics regarding ground water, 'glacier farming', etc. become topics.
I don't consider water as a 'renewable' because it is being chemically destroyed in the process. Wind power converts kinetic energy, but the air is unchanged. Solar panels chemically convert radiant energy that would otherwise simply get absorbed by the earth's surface (I suppose the source is finite, but not because of human consumption).
One interesting consideration is that lighter vehicles put considerably less wear on roads. Without the cost of a driver, I would not be surprised to see trucks to start shrinking again.Rubber tires on ashphalt (both take a lot of energy and wear out fairly quickly) has some obvious limitations.
With more trucks to carry the same amount of freight, maintenance and CAPEX would both rise. I don't see trucks shrinking unless some kind of regulation is implemented.One interesting consideration is that lighter vehicles put considerably less wear on roads. Without the cost of a driver, I would not be surprised to see trucks to start shrinking again.
I hope you know what competitive advantage is in economics. Countries are going to buy hydrogen from whichever producers can make it the cheapest, they're not going to be digging groundwater to hydrolyze it. That probably means huge coastal solar and offshore wind farms making hydrogen extremely cheaply to sell around the world.No doubt there is a lot of water - in all of its states. CalTech estimates about 326 million trillion gallons; about 97% being saltwater. Best as I can tell the general scientific consensus is that it is a closed system, although there was one online article I saw that posited computer modelling suggests the earth can create it deep in the core.
According to Wiki, electrolyzing hydrogen out of water takes about 50-55Kw of energy to create 1 Kg of hydrogen. They say that is relatively efficient - I'll take their word for it.
The problem to me is that once water becomes a commodity on an industrial scale, all bets are off. At 50-55Kw/Kg, do the math for energy input required. Countries that don't have access to seawater will go after fresh water to participate in the market. It will be little different than the current petroleum industry. When great gobs of money are involved, ethics regarding ground water, 'glacier farming', etc. become topics.
Errr. But water is re-created when hydrogen is combusted. So it goes back into nature i.e. renewableI don't consider water as a 'renewable' because it is being chemically destroyed in the process. Wind power converts kinetic energy, but the air is unchanged. Solar panels chemically convert radiant energy that would otherwise simply get absorbed by the earth's surface (I suppose the source is finite, but not because of human consumption).
With more trucks to carry the same amount of freight, maintenance and CAPEX would both rise. I don't see trucks shrinking unless some kind of regulation is implemented.
Equatorial deserts will all be very attractive places for solar farms. When people say that we need massive grid energy storage to use renewables, they are not considering that we'll just have dispatchable demand rather than vast storage. A lot of renewable energy can just be sunk into synthesizing chemicals for the chemical industry. We just need low capex electrolyzers that can be turned on when there is excess power and turned off when there is not. Hydrogen is not merely a storage medium for transportation energy (I think it's inferior to batteries in most ground transport applications on an efficiency basis), but a huge feedstock for the chemical and materials industry. We need to replace coal for reducing iron ore used in steelmaking, and that replacement will be hydrogen. Similarly for producing other important chemical feedstocks such as ammonia, etc. It's much easier to store the useful chemical products as a way of managing variability in energy output.I hope you know what competitive advantage is in economics. Countries are going to buy hydrogen from whichever producers can make it the cheapest, they're not going to be digging groundwater to hydrolyze it. That probably means huge coastal solar and offshore wind farms making hydrogen extremely cheaply to sell around the world.
So coastal deserts and offshore continental shelves will be where hydrogen gets made.
The Saudi's stay energy giants, you'll see Australia and Chile get into it, Baja California, North Africa all become energy producing regions.
Errr. But water is re-created when hydrogen is combusted. So it goes back into nature i.e. renewable
Regulators may consider tightening restrictions. Shippers would already like larger trucks than are permitted currently, after all (only limited by current regulation). Having to build all of our roads to take the abuse of heavily loaded trucks imposes a lot of cost on cities.With more trucks to carry the same amount of freight, maintenance and CAPEX would both rise. I don't see trucks shrinking unless some kind of regulation is implemented.
I hope you know what competitive advantage is in economics. Countries are going to buy hydrogen from whichever producers can make it the cheapest, they're not going to be digging groundwater to hydrolyze it. That probably means huge coastal solar and offshore wind farms making hydrogen extremely cheaply to sell around the world.
So coastal deserts and offshore continental shelves will be where hydrogen gets made.
The Saudi's stay energy giants, you'll see Australia and Chile get into it, Baja California, North Africa all become energy producing regions.
Errr. But water is re-created when hydrogen is combusted. So it goes back into nature i.e. renewable
Conservation of matter. There is no shortage of water on earth. The only concern about water availability is about localized availability of clean, fresh water.You are right about hydrogen having water vapour as an exhaust component. I don't know enough of the process to understand the relationship of water in : water out.
Not sure about this. Remote supervision is a thing. Having one remote operator manage 10 vehicles would be quite advantageous for both freight and rideshare.
But getting back to AV's and EV's, if we ever truly come to grips with carbon, the new cost of energy will disrupt a lot of things. Even if there is a labour free vehicle to haul them, other costs will prohibit a lot of things and create new opportunities. Rubber tires on ashphalt (both take a lot of energy and wear out fairly quickly) has some obvious limitations.