Taxis and ride-sharing in Toronto

[TheTigerMaster]

Okay, so the simple solution is to just update the regulations to define Uber as a taxi service and forget about this issue.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Okay, so the simple solution is to just update the regulations to define Uber as a taxi service and forget about this issue.

That would be too simple for City Council.

But the Judge even noted during the City request for injunction that they weren't really looking at regulating, but snuffing out Uber from Toronto. The whole stall with council is in part that they do want Uber gone, not regulated.

 

[mdrejhon]

Kicking the can down the road is tempting.

Even if Toronto snuffs Uber out, we still need to eventually deal with a future era where some cities will have streets full of self-driving vehicles of all kinds (from solo cars, carpool cars, and minibuses), with a significant fraction of vehicles on road hailable on demand, anytime, anywhere (e.g. like catching a cab on a New York City street, or like catching a bus on Eglinton Avenue -- but on every single street in the entire GTHA). Not in the next five or ten years, but within the next twenty to fifty (using advanced versions of Category 4 fully self-driving cars; the type legally able to drive children or drunks from point A to B). Current taxi regulations don't adequately cover such a possible future, which may happen within our lifetimes, with doubled/tripled peak period road efficiency in cities that does this properly & well.

 

[ksun]

Okay, so the simple solution is to just update the regulations to define Uber as a taxi service and forget about this issue.

I can't believe someone is proposing more bureaucracy and cost for a new business that seems to be working perfectly.
To serve exactly what purpose, so that Uber price will be increased and therefore taxi drivers could get more business?

I don't get it. if people prefer Uber over taxis, that means the taxis are becoming obsolete, not that there is anything with Uber. Maybe it is the whining taxi drivers who are supposed to find better jobs? Why should their jobs be protected?

 

[Filip]

Or the fact that this entire issue can be summarized in one sentence "we have plates that have an artificial value and we feel that society should protect our 'fake' investment"

Gee, when the property bubble bursts and everyone takes a good haircut on their investments, will we be given subsidies from the city? Probably not, neither should cabbies.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I can't believe someone is proposing more bureaucracy and cost for a new business that seems to be working perfectly.
To serve exactly what purpose, so that Uber price will be increased and therefore taxi drivers could get more business?

I don't get it. if people prefer Uber over taxis, that means the taxis are becoming obsolete, not that there is anything with Uber. Maybe it is the whining taxi drivers who are supposed to find better jobs? Why should their jobs be protected?

There are two solutions:

1. Apply taxi regulations to Uber

2. Make taxis an unregulated industry

Pick one. I just want a level playing field between all taxi businesses. The fact that Uber is getting away with operating unregulated taxis is fundamentally unfair.

 

[mdrejhon]

There are two solutions:

1. Apply taxi regulations to Uber

2. Make taxis an unregulated industry

Pick one.

Today, I think we'd lean towards 1 -- but the long-term answer is somewhere in between, with a long-term 20 year modernizing of taxi regulations for the modern share economy. Right now we got problems such as taxi license limits that will eventually make Toronto fall behind. There is no easy way for a current taxi company in Toronto to begin a dynamic carpooled taxi service. Either way, it would be equal between all parties.

The simplified version of the taxi rules, from a customer perspective, can be reviewed at
http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/39/101000038339.html
The longer version is more boring, but there for the read.

Current taxi regulations require a taxi meter.
Example modifications can include:
- Permitting taxi companies to use a smartphone as the taxi meter. No in-car meter required.

Ambiguities between taxis, rideshares, limos, black cabs, etc.
- Creating clearer rules for official taxicabs versus reuse of non-taxi-vehicles for taxi services (including black cabs, limousines, etc.) to not allow a vaccuum to occur, etc. Create a more level playing field, while preserving price choice (lower price for dynamic carpooled services and dynamic-route minibus services) Accomodate regular vehicles that are temporarily standing-in for taxi-type service and apply it equally to all services.

Current taxi regulations puts a limit on number of taxicabs
Example modifications can include:
- Removal of limits for dynamically carpooled taxi services (where you hail a passing carpool)
- Supply was so tight. Once, taxi drivers had to pay over $300,000 for a taxi license. Indentured slavery!
- Within 20-30 years, raise limits incrementally as cost or providing services fall (e.g. driverless cabs, hailable carpools/minibuses, etc)

Current taxi regulations puts an artificial price on taxis
Example modifications can include:
- Gradually phased-in price adjustments to accomodate realities
- Eventual lowering minimum price for certain type that are cheaper to provide, like DIAL-A-BUS type services and dynamic hailable carpool services.
- Enforcement of maximum price would be continued

Etc.

These are just examples. Perhaps my ideas may be bad, but you get the gist of rule-tweaking that will be needed in the coming years, and decades. There is a lot of inertia due to the status quo and lobby desires.

There are many people trying to earn a living as cab drivers, but this doesn't mean we can't gradually modify over a generational time period, to properly meet the future growth in the share economy/micro public transit/etc. Otherwise, other cities are going to develop far more impressive micro-transit-systems on their roads, with eventually far higher average person-per-vehicle average, than on Toronto's roads. We cannot be hamstrung by these rules forever.

Imagine the street half-full of hailable vehicles -- like New York City -- but on every single GTHA street. Eventually, within fifty years -- we may have a situation where:
...You hail in Brampton, somebody's suburban unused selfdriving car pulls out of driveway & drives half a block to you, to bring you to the Hurontario LRT (Operated by ZipCar. This person pays less-than-taxi fare, owner of car gets discount on their lease)
...You hail in downtown Toronto, a carpool two blocks away (but already headed in your direction anyway) picks you up. This is the future where there are so massive numbers of carpools going everywhere that carpools are easily hailable. (Operated by UberPOOL. This person pays only a slightly-above-TTC-like fare, but cheaper-than-taxi fare).
...You hail in a rural area five kilometers away from Newmarket, a roving dial-a-bus comes to pick you up in less than 5 minutes to bring you to nearest GO station along with five other people heading there too (Operated by public transit company. Users pay TTC-like fare). Etc.

Basically, a long generational loosening of taxi regulations. Not elimination. Drivers are licensed, perhaps piggyback it on a enhanced G license, as an example. Regulation of some kind is needed, but not so onerous that Toronto fails compared to other cities that take advantage. We need safety. But today's rules are going to be more and more outdated as the share economy expands more and more.

 

[ksun]

Or the fact that this entire issue can be summarized in one sentence "we have plates that have an artificial value and we feel that society should protect our 'fake' investment"

Gee, when the property bubble bursts and everyone takes a good haircut on their investments, will we be given subsidies from the city? Probably not, neither should cabbies.

The globe has an excellent article on this issue today

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...behind-torontos-cab-business/article25515301/

Businesses like Uber did an outstanding job in eliminating such huge market inefficiencies caused by nothing but regulation which serves nobody but a limited number of plate holders, who hardly contributed anything to the economy. The current taxi system is broken, and trying to force Uber in the same framework will be stupid.

Honestly I don't think the traditional taxi business needs to stay in large cities. Honestly what exactly is its advantage over Uber? Higher costs, worse service, worse and smelly cars, inflexible availability (nowhere to find when you need it most). One can live perfectly happy in Toronto (and many other cities) with just the TTC and Uber. Last time I spent $29.64 to travel from downtown to Pearson, a great car, friendly driver. Tell me what I missed compared with $55-60 in a cab?

The last thing we need is more regulation.

 

[mdrejhon]

The last thing we need is more regulation.

Good globe article.

Recognizing the impossibility of just erasing the taxi regulations, see my post above about gradually loosening the regulations over a generational time period.

Level playing for all, at taxi lobby's protest -- but not cold turkey painful (otherwise taxi drivers may scream "genocide" at such a concept).

Although I agree we must protect livelihoods over a transitional period (despite the bad apples), this industry is so inefficient right now (like old Ma Bell) that slow deregulation would cause price falls (like it did for long distance telephone). The massive chasm between Uber and regulated taxi services, needs to be bridged somehow.

It's already shown it is possible for drivers to get more profit, while simultaneously providing lower fares passengers. (And that's not even with driverless cars yet) Regulation should be adjusted to eventually accommodate.

 

[wopchop]

The taxi plate system is a joke. You can have regulation (ie. background checks, insurance, etc) without the ridiculous artificial restriction of supply that is created by the entire system. The entire system is setup to limit competition, which is why it sucks and has never had much incentive to improve.

 

[Dan416]

I think the traditional taxi companies should be put out of businesses. I cannot quantify my distaste of taxis.

Uber is great and even Toronto makes it illegal somehow, I'm sure other ridesharing apps will take it's place.

But I'm confident Uber will survive here and elsewhere.

 

[MetroMan]

I think the traditional taxi companies should be put out of businesses. I cannot quantify my distaste of taxis.

Uber is great and even Toronto makes it illegal somehow, I'm sure other ridesharing apps will take it's place.

But I'm confident Uber will survive here and elsewhere.

If the market is allowed to decide, taxis in their current form won't be around into the 2020's. I took an UberX home just now and the driver told me that Uber has assured its drivers that they have their back 100%. They'll pay any court costs and fines if it comes to that. I personally haven't noticed a drop in drivers in my area. The sting doesn't seem to have scared them off.

 

[Filip]

This is true - I spoke to a driver yesterday and he said they're covered.

I offered to sit next to him so we can say this isn't Uber in case he gets pulled over, but he said not to worry.

 

[Napoleon]

That article nailed it. It's these few license plate holders that are directly funding the election of Karygiannis and other councillors that then continue to support the current system. While I understand the desire for gradual change, it's too late. You can't put the Uber genie back in the bottle. Disruptive innovation has already occurred. Now, it's time to deal with in a forward-moving and productive way.

The people I do feel sorry for are the current taxi drivers. It might be possible to arrange a fleet of vehicles they can rent to use as Uber drivers. Of course, they would have to up their driving standards a bit.

The honest truth is that as a passenger I prefer Uber. As a cyclist, I hate taxi drivers--they engage in some of the most dangerous driving maneuvers I see on the streets of Toronto as they attempt to hustle fares off the street. As a pedestrian, I prefer Uber. On the rare occasions I drive, I find taxis are the most aggressive other drivers.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You can't put the Uber genie back in the bottle. Disruptive innovation has already occurred. Now, it's time to deal with in a forward-moving and productive way.

The people I do feel sorry for are the current taxi drivers. It might be possible to arrange a fleet of vehicles they can rent to use as Uber drivers. Of course, they would have to up their driving standards a bit.

This can't be said better - you cannot put the genie back in the bottle. My only issue is that the back-end of the system isn't local, but who's to say that there can't be Uber like local competitors?

AoD