Systemic racism affecting the TTC?

[Admiral Beez]

This article annoyed me for its poor use of data and population sets. It says black people are more likely to be stopped by TTC officials, but does not have accurate information for the number of black people using the TTC other than for commuting.

TTC officers have collected more than 40,000 records on riders who weren’t charged with an offence

The information, gathered when issuing a “warning” to transit users suspected of fare evasion and other misconduct, is kept for 20 years — a practice ...

www.thestar.com

The Star had a message they wanted to convey and sought out data to support it. Isn’t that the inverse of good journalism?

 

[nfitz]

This article annoyed me for its poor use of data and population sets. It says black people are more likely to be stopped by TTC officials, but does not have accurate information for the number of black people using the TTC other than for commuting.

The Star had a message they wanted to convey and sought out data to support it. Isn’t that the inverse of good journalism?

Do you have any data that suggests the article is wrong?

Perhaps you have a message you want to convey without the data to support it!

 

[rbt]

This article annoyed me for its poor use of data and population sets. It says black people are more likely to be stopped by TTC officials, but does not have accurate information for the number of black people using the TTC other than for commuting.
...
The Star had a message they wanted to convey and sought out data to support it. Isn’t that the inverse of good journalism?

I agree there are a number of issues with the data in this article. Since the data is incomplete you can argue that blacks are targeted by TTC or you can argue blacks are more likely to commit an offence (the information collected is only done “in a scenario where we observe an offence committed.”). Both would likely be demonstrated false if more complete information was available.

What's missing is where the observations were made (so census data might be used) or a description of passengers all passengers observed who did not commit an offence. The star tried to the general makeup of the TTC but TTC fare inspectors do not work on a completely random basis TTC wide. Buses have a driver who inspects fares on boarding, so it's comparitively rare for fare inspectors to do a sweep of buses compared to other modes.

Income and age are generally more strongly correlated to this kind of thing than any other indicator.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Do you have any data that suggests the article is wrong?

That’s not how it works. If I claim you’re an idiot, it’s not up to you to disprove my claim. It’s up to the person or organization making the claim to support it, AKA, put up or shut up.

 

[nfitz]

That’s not how it works. If I claim you’re an idiot, it’s not up to you to disprove my claim. It’s up to the person or organization making the claim to support it, AKA, put up or shut up.

I'm not sure your issue with the article itself, beyond some statistical detail. The data goes back for years.

No one would deny there's been systemic racism within various parts of the city on similar issues.

To what end would one question that the documentation here is at double the rate of the population?

 

[Neutrino]

This article annoyed me for its poor use of data and population sets. It says black people are more likely to be stopped by TTC officials, but does not have accurate information for the number of black people using the TTC other than for commuting.

TTC officers have collected more than 40,000 records on riders who weren’t charged with an offence

The information, gathered when issuing a “warning” to transit users suspected of fare evasion and other misconduct, is kept for 20 years — a practice ...

www.thestar.com

The Star had a message they wanted to convey and sought out data to support it. Isn’t that the inverse of good journalism?

Hardly surprising. Certain segments of our society view any socioeconomic/demographic disparities (deviations from their beloved equality of outcome) as evidence of bias, discrimination and so forth. As for "systemic" racism, kindly point me to the policies our institutions have that discriminate against any given group on the basis of said group's immutable (or otherwise) characteristics. There are none. If anything, we have codified systemic anti-discrimination. Yes, there are likely racist individuals in our society, but that's a very far cry from the issue being systemic. This is a perfect example of what people mean when they refer to the mainstream media's left wing bias. Edit: @nfitz your laugh react is cute, but still waiting on an actual argument from you. Until then, pardon me while I laugh.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm not sure your issue with the article itself, beyond some statistical detail.

Then ask.

The issue is with the claim that X group is disproportionately targeted by the TTC but the ratio of X group in the sample population (total TTC users) is inaccurate because it does not include non-commuting users of the TTC.

 

[nfitz]

The issue is with the claim that X group is disproportionately targeted but the ratio of X group in the sample population is not complete.

Given how big an issue that racism still plays in our society, you aren't actually suggesting that TTC is somehow immune from the systemic racism that plagues other parts of the city?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Given how big an issue that racism still plays in our society, you aren't actually suggesting that TTC is somehow immune from the systemic racism that plagues other parts of the city!

No.

 

[nfitz]

No.

That's a relief.

I'm not sure what data that the Toronto Star should have accessed,that they didn't. That the interactions for Blacks were 220% higher than the population is stunning - and far bigger than you'd expect if you start consider factors such as ridership, etc.

As this is for people who weren't charged/fined, it makes you wonder what it is for those who were charged/fined.

It also makes you wonder what the ratios were for those who were.

Some kind of temporal history would be interesting as well. One would hope there'd be less systemic biases than there was 20 years ago, at the beginning of the data set. Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if the the demographics were different 20 years ago too.

 

[Neutrino]

Given how big an issue that racism still plays in our society, you aren't actually suggesting that TTC is somehow immune from the systemic racism that plagues other parts of the city?

It's almost like you didn't consider my argument. Why are some people so eager to jump to racism as the sole reason for disparities? It's nothing but intellectual laziness bred of ideological bias. Any social scientist worth their salt will tell you that's a univariate analysis. Whereas, understanding complex social phenomena requires a multivariate approach. Colloquially expressed, this is the phrase "the truth is somewhere in the middle."

 

[nfitz]

It's almost like you didn't consider my argument. Why are some people so eager to jump to racism as the sole reason for disparities? It's nothing but intellectual laziness bred of ideological bias. Any social scientist worth their salt will tell you that's a univariate analysis. Whereas, understanding complex social phenomena requires a multivariate approach. Colloquially expressed, this is the phrase "the truth is somewhere in the middle."

I don't recall responding to your argument. Nor do I recall anyone saying it's the sole reason.

Personally I think it's unsavoury how quickly some jump to criticize something that highlights the systemic racism that exists.

I'm sure valid criticism can be made of this - and virtually any - media article. But is it necessary? If the rate was 110% then it could simply be just underlying statistical issues. It's 220%.

 

[Neutrino]

I don't recall responding to your argument. Nor do I recall anyone saying it's the sole reason.

It's very clearly the implication among many on the progressive/activist left.

Personally I think it's unsavoury how quickly some jump to criticize something that highlights the systemic racism that exists.

Point me to one, one law or regulation on the books that is racist any given group.

I'm sure valid criticism can be made of this - and virtually any - media article. But is it necessary? If the rate was 110% then it could simply be just underlying statistical issues. It's 220%.

Of course criticism is necessary when an ideological narrative is being presented as fact. And I would make the exact same argument toward any kooky right wing article that goes too far in its claims.

Maybe, just maybe, there are differences in average group behavior between different groups. (for whatever reasons). Disparities in outcome are not necessarily evidence of racism. Racism may be one underlying cause, but it's extremely lazy to immediately jump to racism as the only reason for the disparities (as many on the activist left routinely do).

This issue needs a lot more attention and genuine research as opposed to brash idpol ideological smearing. Refusing to entertain a more nuanced explanation is a disservice to everyone, particularly the people being disproportionately affected by this issue.

 

[nfitz]

If you start pointing to the "left" but ignoring the centre which has also been very active on such issues; or think that you can show that systemic racism does or doesn't exist by pointing to "one law or regulation on the books that is racist any given group" then you are part of the problem not the solution!

 

[BurlOak]

I agree there are a number of issues with the data in this article. Since the data is incomplete you can argue that blacks are targeted by TTC or you can argue blacks are more likely to commit an offence (the information collected is only done “in a scenario where we observe an offence committed.”). Both would likely be demonstrated false if more complete information was available.

From above

1. you can argue that blacks are targeted by TTC or
2. you can argue blacks are more likely to commit an offence

Your missing an option:

3. you can argue that blacks are equally likely as others to commit an offense, but they get the benefit of the doubt (and let go without ticket) twice as often as others.