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Symposium: Designing Transit Cities (Nov 19-20)

If we designed cities simply with "travel times" over everything else, we'd be covered in freeways by now.

It's not just travel times, it's cost, it's environmental, it's capacity. Travel times are a key component though, and all things being equal a transit project which does nothing for travel times but costs billions of dollars is idiotic. "Development" effects are frankly nothing but voodoo. Every transit agency claims that if you give them x-billion dollars they will spur x-million dollars (even in their fantasy scenarios, the multipliers are negative) with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.
 
We pretty much are covered with freeways kettal. We've got such expansive infrastructure like the Gardiner/QEW, DVP/404, 400, 427, 401, 407, 403/410 and many arterials have been widened over the past 50 years. Had we gone the transit focused route we'd be blanketed in subway lines and electrified all day GO lines. Either way, the perception of speed has played a large role in the infrastructure we've built and there's nothing wrong with that if other factors like environmental effects and development can be balanced into the equation.
 
Then why do the cities which have the most freeways and 6-lane arterials have low transit ridership?

Another silly non sequitur, just what was needed!

Let's see GO buses get around without the highways. Let's see ROWs get built without wide arterial roadways to consume. Let's see diamond lanes or even regular buses function without multi-lane roads.
 
You're half right. It benefits transit speeds, but it is detrimental to transit usefulness. Why is transit modal share noticibly higher in Scarborough than it is in Mississauga, despite the fact Mississauga has much wider roads, and more freeways? Then, for the parts of the city which have literally no 6 lane arterials... the transit usage is even higher. Strange!

Freeway and superblock arterials encourage cu-de-sac housing and office-park employment lands, neither of which will ever be attractive for transit use.
 
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You missed the point. Money spent on roads helps transit. It's that simple. Not just speed, but in terms of the sheer space needed to operate transit routes. On the other hand, transit investments help roads.

Mississauga is farther from downtown than Scarborough and suffers from poor integration with transit in the 416 and a double fare. There's few roads that even run between Toronto and Mississauga. The people themselves are also different...different cultures, different incomes, etc. Most roads in suburban Toronto have room for 6 lanes, anyway, but currently have 4-5 lanes plus wide grass strips. Without this space, BRT/LRT/diamond lanes, bike lanes, and so on would not be feasible without buying up entire neighbourhoods and razing them.

Freeways encourage whatever development is permitted, not specific types. Culs-de-sac are not the slightest bit unattractive to transit if they have walkways to main roads...some areas have many of these pathways, and some have none.
 
So, I just finished reading The Honest Broker by Roger Pielke, which is about science policy and not exactly fantastic reading, but highly illuminating in the context of transportation planning in Toronto. Basically, the premise is that science has been politicized and scientists serve as issue advocates to provide "evidence" for one side of a political debate over another, ad nauseam, taking advantage of the high levels of uncertainty inherent in the question being studied. Since both sides do this, progress in policy-making effectively stalls. The answer, Pielke argues, is for scientists to put all the policy options from both sides of the political process on the table for decision makers to sort out. I would argue that that passes the buck to decision makers, but let's not get too carried away discussing the book and instead look at how depoliticizing policy choices influences a major transportation debate in the GTA, specifically one that can be neatly polarized into two camps: if we want to improve travel, should we spend money on roads or transit? My suggestion is that we do both. If you argue for one over the other, you end up either being Wendell Cox (roads, roads, uber alles) or the David Miller/Adam Giambrone school of transportation planning (let's starve roads and put all our rhetoric into building LRT), and you end up directing your resources and time to fighting a battle rather than buidling transportation infrastructure.

The "Honest Broker" way would be to build roads and transit in equal measures; in other words, not to alienate one camp over the other. If you look at the most successful transportation cities right now: Madrid, Vancouver, Calgary, practically anything in China - you will see that they are feverishly building roads as they are building rail. In Canada, Vancouver is building or widening multiple road bridges over the Fraser and widened the Sea-to-Sky highway while it built the Canada and Millennium lines (and soon the Evergreen). Ditto Madrid, which built extensive freeways around its suburbs while expanding its metro network by an impressive amount. Toronto, during the 1960s, was also a case of this: we built the majority of our extant subway system while we were building our 400-series highways. So, to sum up, back then we didn't have fights like "The War on the Car", because we were building both roads and rail at a fever pitch. There was no way that a councilor like Rob Ford or Denzil Minnan Wong would take Giambrone to task over Jarvis because there was ample evidence that cars were being pandered to as well. When it comes to transportation improvements that involve roads and rail, you either build both or you build none.
 
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Then why do the cities which have the most freeways and 6-lane arterials have low transit ridership?

Huh?

Montreal has way more highway kilometres per capita and per land mass versus Toronto (either City of Toronto vs. Island of Montreal or GTA vs. Montreal/Laval/South Shore/Basse-Laurentides) and they rival Toronto and New York for highest per capita ridership.
 
Me neither, especially when the nascent subway-supporting activist group doesn't even bother to show up.

SOS attending "Designing Transit Cities" would be like an Israeli delegation attending a United Nations Human Rights Commission conference in Durban.
 
Montreal has way more highway kilometres per capita and per land mass versus Toronto (either City of Toronto vs. Island of Montreal or GTA vs. Montreal/Laval/South Shore/Basse-Laurentides) ...
Not sure how they count highways ... is Yonge Street a highway? How do you compare Toronto's main east-west highway; the 14-lane 401 to the 6-lane Metropolitan?

Having lived in both cities, Montreal isn't exactly blessed with moving highways,. Perhaps a comparison of the number of kilometres of lanes would be in order.
 
SOS attending "Designing Transit Cities" would be like an Israeli delegation attending a United Nations Human Rights Commission conference in Durban.

No it's not. You guys both like transit. Your plans overlap. You believe in LRT in certain corridors. Saying "I think the Sheppard subway should be expanded to STC" isn't tantamount to heresy in anyone's mind.

Don't act like you're some persecuted group being overpowered by a dominant ideology when no one associated with your movement has ever attended any kind of public meeting and put forth alternative ideas.
 
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So, I just finished reading The Honest Broker by Roger Pielke, which is about science policy and not exactly fantastic reading, but highly illuminating in the context of transportation planning in Toronto. Basically, the premise is that science has been politicized and scientists serve as issue advocates to provide "evidence" for one side of a political debate over another, ad nauseam, taking advantage of the high levels of uncertainty inherent in the question being studied. Since both sides do this, progress in policy-making effectively stalls. The answer, Pielke argues, is for scientists to put all the policy options from both sides of the political process on the table for decision makers to sort out. I would argue that that passes the buck to decision makers, but let's not get too carried away discussing the book and instead look at how depoliticizing policy choices influences a major transportation debate in the GTA, specifically one that can be neatly polarized into two camps: if we want to improve travel, should we spend money on roads or transit? My suggestion is that we do both. If you argue for one over the other, you end up either being Wendell Cox (roads, roads, uber alles) or the David Miller/Adam Giambrone school of transportation planning (let's starve roads and put all our rhetoric into building LRT), and you end up directing your resources and time to fighting a battle rather than buidling transportation infrastructure.

The "Honest Broker" way would be to build roads and transit in equal measures; in other words, not to alienate one camp over the other. If you look at the most successful transportation cities right now: Madrid, Vancouver, Calgary, practically anything in China - you will see that they are feverishly building roads as they are building rail. In Canada, Vancouver is building or widening multiple road bridges over the Fraser and widened the Sea-to-Sky highway while it built the Canada and Millennium lines (and soon the Evergreen). Ditto Madrid, which built extensive freeways around its suburbs while expanding its metro network by an impressive amount. Toronto, during the 1960s, was also a case of this: we built the majority of our extant subway system while we were building our 400-series highways. So, to sum up, back then we didn't have fights like "The War on the Car", because we were building both roads and rail at a fever pitch. There was no way that a councilor like Rob Ford or Denzil Minnan Wong would take Giambrone to task over Jarvis because there was ample evidence that cars were being pandered to as well. When it comes to transportation improvements that involve roads and rail, you either build both or you build none.

The problem is where do we get the money for that? The City and the TTC are already lacking funds as it is, and we don't have a hope in Hell of getting any money from Harper for any infrastructure. The best use is public transit, but things like LRT/Scarborough RT/Sheppard Subway are just wastes of money that aren't even worth the effort.
 
^
Sell off highways. We're siting on billions of dollars of infrastructure that could be sold to fund any number of other capital expenditures, or pay off debt but the result is pretty similar one way or another.
 
I'd bet that America would have been richer and much less in debt if it privatized its entire highway systems. Same damn thing goes to Amtrak.
 

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