Streetcars are obsolete?

[cplchanb]

unfortunately in this day and age of DT toronto, the majority of the streetcar routes esp on king and queen are more of a hindrance than actually being useful.
there are simply too many cars that block streetcar operation and with the new flexities coming...if there ever is a jam where one of them gets stuck at an intersection,
basically its gridlock for all sides. consequences of vehicle breakdowns are self explanatory. imo there needs to be some form of ROW or a segregated lane for either mode. To assume that even by creating more lines will get people
off the car is simply niave especially with relatively cheap gas still. NA is car culture, and its here to stay.

 

[W. K. Lis]

unfortunately in this day and age of DT toronto, the majority of the streetcar routes esp on king and queen are more of a hindrance than actually being useful.
there are simply too many cars that block streetcar operation and with the new flexities coming...if there ever is a jam where one of them gets stuck at an intersection,
basically its gridlock for all sides. consequences of vehicle breakdowns are self explanatory. imo there needs to be some form of ROW or a segregated lane for either mode. To assume that even by creating more lines will get people
off the car is simply niave especially with relatively cheap gas still. NA is car culture, and its here to stay.

Slowly, cities are actually turning over streets to transit only. No private automobiles allowed.

 

[cplchanb]

Slowly, cities are actually turning over streets to transit only. No private automobiles allowed.

True but comparing Toronto to what Winnipegs doing is like apples to oranges. The population of Torontos downtown core is many many times greater than Winnipeg plus the tens of thousands of commuters who commute daily. I think kings ridership daily already exceeds Winnipegs downtown population. That being said, for a city like Toronto one cannot simply just put an axe through two of the busiest roads downtrend ban cars without residual repercussions. Imo the best way is to follow the London method and tax the car. Make casual car travel downtown expensive.Don't try to get cars off the road by freezing traffic, get them off the road because the financial cost outweighs the benefits. However, if that is to happen alternative transit MUST be well in place. London can do this because their tube is well established. Toronto is a long ways away

 

[jje1000]

For some reason Toronto is unique among North American cities for having such a disjointed and underdeveloped downtown street grid for its size.

Hence, we have very few major streets that run continuously across the city- even removing lanes one of them (i.e. King) can be a major issue.

 

[crs1026]

For some reason Toronto is unique among North American cities for having such a disjointed and underdeveloped downtown street grid for its size.

Hence, we have very few major streets that run continuously across the city- even removing lanes one of them (i.e. King) can be a major issue.

Actually we are pretty close to a grid. Boston certainly would envy us. So would LA. We have some anomalies, yes.

The issue is what priority we place on passage of automobiles. Historically, that was highest priority and within our ability to achieve. Maybe it isn't so easy any more.....there are just too many cars. If we had no busses or street cars on our streets....traffic would still be crawling.

I see nothing wrong with a new policy that says "transit must always get through, and then we will accept as many cars as will fit, without impeding transit". That's the highest possible throughput. Some form of permit or user fee would achieve that.

- Paul

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually we are pretty close to a grid. Boston certainly would envy us. So would LA. We have some anomalies, yes.

Even NYC in Lower Manhattan. Ironically unlike Boston, Montreal or NYC, Toronto was planned as a grid right from the start (see original 10 blocks - http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/miscellany-toronto-photographs-then-and-now.6947/page-746)

AoD

 

[smallspy]

unfortunately in this day and age of DT toronto, the majority of the streetcar routes esp on king and queen are more of a hindrance than actually being useful.

A lot of people thought that when the B-D subway opened - and yet when Metro's Traffic Department did their studies 4 or 5 years after the opening of the line they found that traffic on Bloor and Danforth was considerably worse than when the streetcars were running.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ADRM]

There are some weird sentiments being expressed on this thread; the fact that our traffic sucks is the ultimate reason to prioritize mass transit by removing streetcars from mixed traffic on the busiest routes.

 

[dowlingm]

The most annoying part about this thread for me is the laying out of a broad statement with absolutely nothing to stand behind it in the first post.

 

[robmausser]

Newly built systems using modern streetcars have so far only opened in cities in the United States, and are summarized in the table below:

City/Area served Country State
/Province Streetcar system Year
opened Year
last
expanded System
length Stops Lines Type of vehicle
Portland

USA

OR Portland Streetcar 2001[50] 2015[51][50] 7.35 mi (11.83 km)[50] 76[50] 2[50] Škoda 10 T,
Inekon Trams 12-Trio,
United Streetcar 100
Seattle

USA

WA Seattle Streetcar 2007[52] 2016[53] 3.8 mi (6.1 km)[52][54] 17[55] 2[55] Inekon Trams 12-Trio, Trio Type 121
Salt Lake City

USA

UT S Line 2013[56] n/a 2.0 mi (3.2 km)[56] 7[56] 1[56] Siemens S70
Tucson

USA

AZ Sun Link 2014[57] n/a 3.9 mi (6.3 km)[57] 22 1 United Streetcar 200
Atlanta

USA

GA Atlanta Streetcar 2014[58] n/a 2.7 mi (4.3 km)[58] 12[58] 1[58] Siemens S70
Dallas

USA

TX Dallas Streetcar 2015[59] 2016[60] 2.45 mi (3.94 km)[61] 6[61] 1[61] Brookville Liberty[62][63]
Washington, D.C.

USA

DC DC Streetcar
(H/Benning line)[64] 2016[65] n/a 2.4 mi (3.9 km)[64] 8[64] 1[64] Inekon 12-Trio;
United Streetcar model 100
Kansas City

USA

MO KC Streetcar[66] 2016[67] n/a 2 mi (3.2 km)[66] 16[66] 1[66] CAF Urbos 3
Cincinnati

USA

OH Cincinnati Bell Connector[68] 2016[69] n/a 3.6 mi (5.8 km)[70] 18[70] 1[70] CAF Urbos 3

cities with streetcar systems in the active building and planning stages include
Detroit

USA

MI QLine[88] 2017 3.3 mi (5.3 km)[89] Brookville[90]
El Paso,[92]
Fort Lauderdale,[93]
Los Angeles,[94]
Milwaukee,[95]
Minneapolis,[96]
New York City,[97]
Oklahoma City,[98]
Sacramento (the Downtown/Riverfront Streetcar),[99]
Santa Ana,[100]
Tempe.[101]

Whether you agree or not, streetcars are seeing a resurgence in north america and they are here to stay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcars_in_North_America

 

[aquateam]

I'm imaging an automated suspended railway over all the cars that will dip down to ground level to board and then curve back up above the cars. No congestion, efficient, no massive tunnel and no expensive stations.

Or, you could have the passengers come up to board? Something like this:

or this:

But the whole "streetcar is obsolete" isn't necessarily wrong. Right now there are 3 advantages to streetcars:
1) They're larger than buses, necessitating fewer drivers (lower operating costs) and carrying more passengers per vehicle
2) They're electric, so they don't generate fumes
3) They are more comfortable, less jolting and swaying side-to-side

For 1), articulated buses exist that carry as many people as our standard streetcars (although not as many as the flexities).

For 2) Trolley buses have the same advantage, but with the added benefit of being able to change lanes if there is an obstruction in the centre lane. They also generally have greater capacity than diesel buses.

For 3) Streetcars still have this advantage but buses exist with fixed guideways. As we move to driverless systems, buses may become much less jerky, with less sudden braking and accelerating.

There are also some severe downsides to streetcars:
1) They can't move out of the path of any obstruction on their track, so one stalled streetcar can bring down the entire line
2) They are phenomenally expensive, you can get around 20 buses for the price of a single streetcar. This causes procurement and budget issues
3) They only operate on tracks which are a) difficult to maintain, b) responsible for half the cyclist injuries in the city and c) result in lengthy detours and deadheading when their route is blocked.


Jarrett Walker does a good job of explaining which properties are intrinsic to buses and which are intrinsic to streetcars and why buses are moving more towards having the advantages of streetcars in operation.

 

[Johnny Au]

What about the Chinese straddling buses as compared with streetcars/LRVs?

 

[W. K. Lis]

What about the Chinese straddling buses as compared with streetcars/LRVs?

Oddball Chinese ‘Straddling Bus’ Goes Bust

See link.

A recent report from Chinese news outlet The Paper says that a radical “straddling bus” that promised to solve China’s mounting urban traffic problem has hit a major roadblock. A full-scale test model of the bus has been all but abandoned at its testing site in Qinhuangdao, and the company developing it seems to have evaporated.

 

[cplchanb]

Well imo it's more due to the shadow company taking their money and disappearing like farraday future did than actual failure of concept. The concept was quite radical but it did show promise. For sure significant development and testing was required before it becomes a daily reality

 

[ssiguy2]

This would be a better choice and FAR superior for Finch than LRT.

www.skytrolley.com