Steeles RT

[Sunnyside]

If it wasn’t for the Liberals delaying the Toronto LRTs and posturing to the Toronto city council idiotic debates we would have gotten most of Transit City already built by now. Finch was delayed by 5 years. Scarborough was a mess because there was no vision from the province.

Doug got the subway building. Yes it’s over built but it’s better than the ridiculous 1 stop the city had. The 4 priority projects for Ford are all funded and under construction which will make them harder to cancel later. Also Ontario Line is a much better solution than what the city had, which was a short stub that did nothing beyond Yonge line relief downtown.

I just wish we had the first wave open already - Line 5 and 6. Hoping 2024 will be the lucky year.

Steeles RT will hopefully start to be debated in 10 years once Line 1 Yonge north extension is near opening and Steeles will need better bus service. Until then nothing will happen.

I think it would be worthwhile if members discussed what the 'next phase' projects will actually be, and how RapidTO fits into that timeline. We know the 'current phase' goes to 2031, including stuff like GO Expansion, YNSE, HaLRT, HuLRT, Finch, Eg, the three BRTs and any other subway projects besides Sheppard. The question is what will be getting moved forward next; Steeles is certainly on the table, so is Finch East, OL North and plenty more. Depending on what projects are moving forward as BRT, more could be on the table, too; Hamilton's A-Line, Simcoe St, even Trafalgar could be where the province is eyeing expansion.

Eglinton East and the RapidTO corridors put some of the 416-oriented assumptions into question. I don't know how that overlaps w/provincial plans. I am also curious whether OL/407 RT will start taking priority over other things. In my opinion, I would actually be ok with this as a long term direction, as the envisioned system would deliver much greater benefits to the entire region than any piecemeal LRT projects in the interim. The motif seems to be speed and quantity.

In any case, something tells me Metrolinx's 2051 RTP update is going to have new corridors to consider, even for the short term. COVID definitely has changed travel patterns, and some far-out 905 corridors that facilitate circumferential trips before might need more attention than pre-2020 indicated. Steeles' BRT might have to extend further west all the way to Brampton now rather than merely a 'priority bus corridor'.

 

[lead82]

I agree. I think we need to be less focused on suburban to downtown travel and more regional travel. The aim should je to connect major trip generators together. So university/college campuses to regional centres like Vaughan. Heck it’s even worth considering adding tourism places like Wonderland to the mix. It should also be tied to growth in housing. Eglinton is a missed opportunity to build affordable and more dense housing along with a major project.

The aim should be that folks in the suburbs can reasonably get around without a car. Right now they cannot without new denser development and more urban friendly policies and transit options. Even something as simple as more frequent bus service. It worked for Torontos suburbs as a gateway to attract riders. Think of Finch and Sheppard buses. Sometimes we overthink things and go for fancy solutions when a simple solution GSK work.

Thinking about Steeles RT. Honestly a simple start would be to convert any part of Steeles with 3 lanes each way to a bus lane each direction. Where Steeles is too narrow - widen it to 3 lanes. There is ample room for this and it would be cheap and would improve service instantly without a $B price tag.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Thinking about Steeles RT. Honestly a simple start would be to convert any part of Steeles with 3 lanes each way to a bus lane each direction. Where Steeles is too narrow - widen it to 3 lanes. There is ample room for this and it would be cheap and would improve service instantly without a $B price tag.

Certainly doable for cheap! Extra wide ROW even where it’s down to 2 lanes each way, I don’t even think you need to remove trees or relocate utility poles.

Ball park estimate would be around 12km of road widening between Brampton Shoppers World to Miliken GO (just two arbitrary hubs I’ve selected, not sure if there are better proposed termini).

New 400 underpass already being widened, 427 underpass and Humber bridge will support the extra lanes, I think the only new build would be the Clairville bridge.

Only area of concern I can foresee is Yonge to Bayview where there are lots of single family homes with a narrow enough frontage to see quite a few NIMBY appeals.

 

[lead82]

Exactly. That’s the only real area of controversy. Easily managed by fiat. Buy out the properties and expropriate the ROW. There should be no reason to have single family homes on a major arterial, especially once the subway comes to Steeles.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

I think it would be worthwhile if members discussed what the 'next phase' projects will actually be, and how RapidTO fits into that timeline. We know the 'current phase' goes to 2031, including stuff like GO Expansion, YNSE, HaLRT, HuLRT, Finch, Eg, the three BRTs and any other subway projects besides Sheppard. The question is what will be getting moved forward next; Steeles is certainly on the table, so is Finch East, OL North and plenty more. Depending on what projects are moving forward as BRT, more could be on the table, too; Hamilton's A-Line, Simcoe St, even Trafalgar could be where the province is eyeing expansion.

Eglinton East and the RapidTO corridors put some of the 416-oriented assumptions into question. I don't know how that overlaps w/provincial plans. I am also curious whether OL/407 RT will start taking priority over other things. In my opinion, I would actually be ok with this as a long term direction, as the envisioned system would deliver much greater benefits to the entire region than any piecemeal LRT projects in the interim. The motif seems to be speed and quantity.

In any case, something tells me Metrolinx's 2051 RTP update is going to have new corridors to consider, even for the short term. COVID definitely has changed travel patterns, and some far-out 905 corridors that facilitate circumferential trips before might need more attention than pre-2020 indicated. Steeles' BRT might have to extend further west all the way to Brampton now rather than merely a 'priority bus corridor'.

The City of Brampton is absolutely committed to Steeles being a BRT, at least from Hurontario to Humber College, and is so committed to it, that is prepared to not only fund the Initial Business Case for a Steeles BRT, it is also weighing an equivalent of Dundas Connects for the core section of it.

 

[micheal_can]

The City of Brampton is absolutely committed to Steeles being a BRT, at least from Hurontario to Humber College, and is so committed to it, that is prepared to not only fund the Initial Business Case for a Steeles BRT, it is also weighing an equivalent of Dundas Connects for the core section of it.

Didn't they take the same stance on the Hurontario RT? Aren't they relooking at things?

 

[drum118]

Didn't they take the same stance on the Hurontario RT? Aren't they relooking at things?

Regardless if it BRT or LRT on Steeles, the road will have to be widen for an ROW, especially east of the 410.

Only need an BRT on Steeles, especially for the east

If you are doing the BRT, It needs to run west to Mississauga Rd and to Toronto

 

[micheal_can]

Regardless if it BRT or LRT on Steeles, the road will have to be widen for an ROW, especially east of the 410.

Only need an BRT on Steeles, especially for the east

If you are doing the BRT, It needs to run west to Mississauga Rd and to Toronto

So, dig the road up twice?

 

[Cobra]

FFS, how hard is it to throw some goddamn red paint on Steeles??? Tire of this BS when you look at what's being done elsewhere...FML

 

[north-of-anything]

FFS, how hard is it to throw some goddamn red paint on Steeles??? Tire of this BS when you look at what's being done elsewhere...FML

Red paint does not a BRT make. Especially for a city like Brampton that has much higher standards for its public transit. (Whether it meets those standards is a question for another thread.)

 

[Cobra]

Red paint does not a BRT make. Especially for a city like Brampton that has much higher standards for its public transit. (Whether it meets those standards is a question for another thread.)

For some reason, this city severely lacks bus reserved lanes. They might want to lean towards this while debating for years if it should be BRT or LRT. My point is the "debates" by so-called experts at city hall in love with their own speech delays the delivery of much needed better service. Hence my frustration at the lack of pragmatism

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

FFS, how hard is it to throw some goddamn red paint on Steeles??? Tire of this BS when you look at what's being done elsewhere...FML

On the one hand it is technically very easy, and on the other hand it is quite hard, because while BT would like it as an interim measure, the Region of Peel which fully owns the road does not want to add just bus lanes.

Red paint does not a BRT make. Especially for a city like Brampton that has much higher standards for its public transit. (Whether it meets those standards is a question for another thread.)

Bus lanes can be a very useful interim measure, because they can be implemented quickly and cheaply.

For some reason, this city severely lacks bus reserved lanes. They might want to lean towards this while debating for years if it should be BRT or LRT. My point is the "debates" by so-called experts at city hall in love with their own speech delays the delivery of much needed better service. Hence my frustration at the lack of pragmatism

The answer is very simple for why Brampton has not implemented bus lanes, the roads that need it most are the east west roads (Queen, Steeles, Bovaird) that are mostly (Queen) or entirely (Steeles & Bovaird) owned by the Region of Peel. The Region of Peel is quite open to planning full BRT lines, yet is opposed to painting bus lanes. Main Street also needs it, and the City does own that road, but they put in bike lanes, because the AT master plan had it, without consulting with Brampton Transit.


In 2025 we may see bus lanes put in on Steeles, because at that point the Region of Peel will be dissolved. Simultaneously the Chinguacousy Zum will open, significantly increasing the number of buses on Steeles between Hurontario and Bramalea Road.

 

[Sunnyside]

On the one hand it is technically very easy, and on the other hand it is quite hard, because while BT would like it as an interim measure, the Region of Peel which fully owns the road does not want to add just bus lanes.

Bus lanes can be a very useful interim measure, because they can be implemented quickly and cheaply.

The answer is very simple for why Brampton has not implemented bus lanes, the roads that need it most are the east west roads (Queen, Steeles, Bovaird) that are mostly (Queen) or entirely (Steeles & Bovaird) owned by the Region of Peel. The Region of Peel is quite open to planning full BRT lines, yet is opposed to painting bus lanes. Main Street also needs it, and the City does own that road, but they put in bike lanes, because the AT master plan had it, without consulting with Brampton Transit.


In 2025 we may see bus lanes put in on Steeles, because at that point the Region of Peel will be dissolved. Simultaneously the Chinguacousy Zum will open, significantly increasing the number of buses on Steeles between Hurontario and Bramalea Road.

To their credit, I'd agree there's a big difference between painted lanes as seen on Eg East and "full" BRT as seen on Highway 7. But I wouldn't say the latter is necessarily better, because as we all know YRT has still missed the key ingredient; service frequency. In my books, a red lane is perfectly fine if your goal is to offer BRT service levels. It becomes an issue when all of a sudden the idea of BRT becomes an impetus for a cohesive Urban Design plan for Steeles or whatever street. Scope creep for BRT is obviously real in the GTHA, which is unfortunate because the only reason we (especially us- the GTHA) advocate for it is because it can be put in place quickly. That's to say, I find it a bit of a contradiction to want a full UD analysis of a BRT corridor if it's just gonna be BRT; it loses its lustre as an easy solution when you overcomplicate it. Not that a UD assessment is bad per se, but if we tie every transit improvement to improving the public realm all the time, we miss the forest for the trees, which is that we want to speed up transit ASAP. Once you introduce the idea of tearing up the road rather than painting it, the cost:benefit ratio seems to tank.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we should put red lanes down on most of the Zum corridors and upgrade the most important ones (read, Steeles in this case) after the fact rather than building a single real nice BRT corridor and then upgrading it again to something else because it induced demand. Seems like alot of wasted time, money, and missed corridors to deliver the same tangible transit benefits on Steeles or what have you in the near term.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

Regardless if it BRT or LRT on Steeles, the road will have to be widen for an ROW, especially east of the 410.

Only need an BRT on Steeles, especially for the east

If you are doing the BRT, It needs to run west to Mississauga Rd and to Toronto

The long term plan for the Steeles BRT is having Lisgar GO as the western anchor, and Humber College as the eastern anchor. In the end, that means the line will connect 2 GO Lines (Milton at Lisgar, and Kitchener at Bramalea GO), two colleges (Sheridan and Humber), and two LRT lines (Hurontario & Finch West), and that is all the stuff that is built or in progress. It will also connect the future 504 Chinguacousy, 507 Kennedy, & 515 Bramalea Zum lines, as well as the existing 502 Main, and 505 Bovaird Zum lines. There are also potential plans for McLaughlin, Mississauga Rd, Dixie, Gore Road, and Highway 50 Zum lines.

To their credit, I'd agree there's a big difference between painted lanes as seen on Eg East and "full" BRT as seen on Highway 7. But I wouldn't say the latter is necessarily better, because as we all know YRT has still missed the key ingredient; service frequency. In my books, a red lane is perfectly fine if your goal is to offer BRT service levels. It becomes an issue when all of a sudden the idea of BRT becomes an impetus for a cohesive Urban Design plan for Steeles or whatever street. Scope creep for BRT is obviously real in the GTHA, which is unfortunate because the only reason we (especially us- the GTHA) advocate for it is because it can be put in place quickly. That's to say, I find it a bit of a contradiction to want a full UD analysis of a BRT corridor if it's just gonna be BRT; it loses its lustre as an easy solution when you overcomplicate it. Not that a UD assessment is bad per se, but if we tie every transit improvement to improving the public realm all the time, we miss the forest for the trees, which is that we want to speed up transit ASAP. Once you introduce the idea of tearing up the road rather than painting it, the cost:benefit ratio seems to tank.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we should put red lanes down on most of the Zum corridors and upgrade the most important ones (read, Steeles in this case) after the fact rather than building a single real nice BRT corridor and then upgrading it again to something else because it induced demand. Seems like alot of wasted time, money, and missed corridors to deliver the same tangible transit benefits on Steeles or what have you in the near term.

Brampton Transit is looking at painting the Steeles bus lanes as an interim measure. High quality thermoplastic paint is estimated to last up to 10 years, and hopefully at that point the Steeles BRT planning will be done, and shovels will be in the ground. The point of a Steeles Connects plan, using Dundas Connects as a starting plan is to demonstrate to Metrolinx that there will be significant growth along the corridor, to help attract provincial funding for the project. Worst case scenario this plan will demonstrate a solid municipal business case for the City to directly fund the project

 

[afransen]

Brampton Transit is looking at painting the Steeles bus lanes as an interim measure. High quality thermoplastic paint is estimated to last up to 10 years, and hopefully at that point the Steeles BRT planning will be done, and shovels will be in the ground. The point of a Steeles Connects plan, using Dundas Connects as a starting plan is to demonstrate to Metrolinx that there will be significant growth along the corridor, to help attract provincial funding for the project. Worst case scenario this plan will demonstrate a solid municipal business case for the City to directly fund the project

Do we even need fancy paint? Some conventional striping and HOV decals/signs should do the job. I'm not sure you get meaningful better compliance with fancy red paint.