theman23
Active Member
Be more specific. The TTC has had a union and even crappier service long before David Miller became mayor.
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Star: Spending, tax policies hurting Toronto: Report
- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
isittimetomoveyet
Active Member
As soon as I opened up the story and read 'Mike Harris' and 'Frasier Institute' I knew it was going to be a bunch of bullshit.
What else can I expect from the originators of "Tax Freedom Day?"
What else can I expect from the originators of "Tax Freedom Day?"
Glen
Senior Member
To add some much needed perspective on that, recall that the first version of the "Enhancing Toronto's Business Climate" initiative, showed the true colours of council and staff. It amounted to a do as little as possible over as long a period of time as possible program. Started nearly 15 years after the first signs of trouble appear. Compare the public suggestions to that of staff. Now look at the more recent changes, the acceleration for small business, the CIP tax grants etc.
Toronto has been hiding its mismanagement for a long time. It is only when that the evidence is incontrovertible that they act. Also recall that Mayor Miller and his predecessors were also pressuring the the province for the right to increase property tax on commercial properties.
Towered
Senior Member
Oh if only we could be more like Edmonton.
isittimetomoveyet
Active Member
What do you mean exactly? That we don't have billions of barrels of bitumin within a couple hours drive?
Earlscourt_Lad
Active Member
Rather than screaming "It's Mike Harris out to get Toronto!, It's Fraser INstitute B-S!", why doesn't someone here who thinks this is so very wrong sit down and refute the claims one by one?
Personally, I think we aren't in decline, but I think we need to examine how to remain competitive when it comes to retaining the top levels of business, research, and so forth. It's when you get complacent that you start to lose, and I suspect there is a certain amount of "well this is Toronto, we're number one", and not looking at how we can compete with the advantages that Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal bring to the table in terms of locations, tax policies, etc. So rather than screaming at this report, why not examine it, and see what truth may be in it. Or if there is none, let's refute it.
Personally, I think we aren't in decline, but I think we need to examine how to remain competitive when it comes to retaining the top levels of business, research, and so forth. It's when you get complacent that you start to lose, and I suspect there is a certain amount of "well this is Toronto, we're number one", and not looking at how we can compete with the advantages that Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal bring to the table in terms of locations, tax policies, etc. So rather than screaming at this report, why not examine it, and see what truth may be in it. Or if there is none, let's refute it.
Glen
Senior Member
I agree. Mike Harris only wrote the forward to the paper, yet some people are so busy shooting the messenger that they failed to notice that the data was compiled from Census data.
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
Not to mention Edmonton's regional squabbles are far worse than those in the GGH. The province continues to screw Edmonton, when there's more than enough reason for the city to be amalgamated with its adjacent suburbs.
TOinTO
Active Member
I think most of the claims are commonly accepted as true. These trends have been reported on for years by the city, by the Board of Trade, by urban advocates, and by the Conference Board of Canada. There's hardly any news in this shallow report.
The ONLY thing newsworthy in this report is that the author (of the forward) is also the author of many of the policies that have had to be changed, or will have to be changed, to fix the problem.
By coupling the stats with a survey that focuses on municipal leadership and efficiency, the Fraser Institute shows us where they are going with this - and I don't think its to an examination of, say, the distribution of taxation authority relative to the distribution of service responsibilities.
Can you imagine a time when any question of the sort "Do you think that the <municipal|provincial|federal> government uses tax revenue efficiently" will get more that 40% of people saying yes? The survey is there to lay the groundwork for the 'analysis' to follow.
Glen
Senior Member
Care to elaborate?
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
I agree with Earlscourt. There are two elements to discuss here. One is the information and analysis, the other is the agenda of those presenting the report. The information and analysis is of great importance and concern regardless of your political persuasion. The agenda is strange to me because why are Mike Harris and Preston Manning who essentially built their political careers on the alienation of Toronto suddenly concerned with it's welfare at the municipal level?
lordmandeep
Banned
No the TTC is a better service through billions in upgrades and expansions. Even with rapidly increasing ridership and lots of more money from governments, the TTC is always short of money. Sure they require even more money and such.
However, what did the TTC to solve this problem?? They give the workers such a generous deal that would workers in a communist state jealous.
Now, the TTC wants money to solve their financial shortfalls by increasing fares again.
That has been the Miller way of doing things in this city.
Tell me how on earth does a city Budget increase by a billion dollars in 4 years. Did the city grow by that much in 4 years, it grew by only 25,000 people from 2001-2006 according to last census.
However, I can see why you all tolerate this man, as Lastman was a bigger clown.
Viriatus
Banned
No the TTC is a better service through billions in upgrades and expansions. Even with rapidly increasing ridership and lots of more money from governments, the TTC is always short of money. Sure they require even more money and such.
However, what did the TTC to solve this problem?? They give the workers such a generous deal that would workers in a communist state jealous.
Now, the TTC wants money to solve their financial shortfalls by increasing fares again.
That has been the Miller way of doing things in this city.
Tell me how on earth does a city Budget increase by a billion dollars in 4 years. Did the city grow by that much in 4 years, it grew by only 25,000 people from 2001-2006 according to last census.
However, I can see why you all tolerate this man, as Lastman was a bigger clown.
Miller is an idiot.
The TTC is a disgrace compared to what the major European cities have in place.
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
You fail to realize that for each and every new rider on the TTC actually INCREASES the cost of operating the system, since each and every rider is being subsidized. This is why the agency is continually strapped for cash in the face of increasing ridership.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
TR, Earlscourt et al:
The statistics presented in that report does NOT even deal with why things are the way they are. For example, there can be a zillion reasons for changes in median income in Toronto and the GTA - ranging from decline in manufacturing positions, increase of the low-wage, part time service sector, changes in demographics (e.g. increasing seniors population, low-income immigrants). None of these necessarily support the conclusion that Fraser Institute tried to make - i.e. this is the result of city-level policy.
AoD
The statistics presented in that report does NOT even deal with why things are the way they are. For example, there can be a zillion reasons for changes in median income in Toronto and the GTA - ranging from decline in manufacturing positions, increase of the low-wage, part time service sector, changes in demographics (e.g. increasing seniors population, low-income immigrants). None of these necessarily support the conclusion that Fraser Institute tried to make - i.e. this is the result of city-level policy.
AoD