So why is North York so Expensive? And Scarborough so cheap?

[TrickyRicky]

I've been living in this city for 15 years and I went to Bluffer's park for the first time this summer. A great spot and you can see the bluffs going East along the shore like an undiscovered (except for the locals) waterfront.

That said, I think the main reason Scarborough is less value can be summed up in this question: When was the last time you found yourself in Scarborough? It's just less geographically important based on employment and travel patterns. You don't go through Scarborough to go to the airport, see a show, deliver goods to the United States, etc.


I don't discount the racism pointed out by Keithz but I think that is an excuse. Scarborough is by no means the only bastion of visible minorities or marginalized visible minority groups in the city.

 

[King of Kensington]

Also Scarborough was always more working class and had cheaper housing even when it was predominantly white.

 

[James]

...
That said, I think the main reason Scarborough is less value can be summed up in this question: When was the last time you found yourself in Scarborough? It's just less geographically important based on employment and travel patterns. You don't go through Scarborough to go to the airport, see a show, deliver goods to the United States, etc.
...

I think this is a good point. If you look to the west of downtown, there are numerous "points of interest" along the waterfront all the way out to Etobicoke. Going east from downtown, once you pass the Bluffs, there is a long stretch of residential area (a fairly nice one at that) until you get to Pickering, but nothing that's going to draw a large amount of non-locals to come out for.

 

[Eug]

That said, I think the main reason Scarborough is less value can be summed up in this question: When was the last time you found yourself in Scarborough? It's just less geographically important based on employment and travel patterns. You don't go through Scarborough to go to the airport, see a show, deliver goods to the United States, etc.

Well, I don't really visit Etobicoke either to go the Airport, unless you count just driving on the 401 as Etobicoke. My main reasons to go to Etobicoke are either to visit friends who live there, or else to go to stuff like flooring and tile shops or whatever, but those also exist in Scarborough. (They're often cheaper in Etobicoke and Scarborough than they are in central Toronto.)

I think your argument works better for central Toronto.

 

[King of Kensington]

I hardly ever spend any time in Scarborough, though I pass through it pretty regularly on the train to Ottawa and Montreal (cities I visit regularly for work or visiting family members).

 

[James]

I keep hearing a lot of people say that central North York homes are still undervalued but I routinely see SFHs easily go for $1M and up. In Willowdale, tear downs are $1.5M! Good luck finding anything decent in York Mills for under $1.5M. Don Mills is now above the $1M mark. Bayview Village hasn't seen properties below $1M in years. Even in the northern parts of North York, like Newtonbrook or Bayview Woods, modest standard homes are well above $1M these days.

Since this thread is about North York and Scarborough, if any area is undervalued, it's definitely Scarborough. You can still find family homes in the $500k range!

 

[King of Kensington]

Why is southern York Region so expensive?

 

[James]

I think, for the most part, the southern part of York Region, spanning from the Pine Valley/Hwy 7 area all the way east through Thornhill and to Unionville, is fairly sought-after on the basis of the property lot sizes, suburban feel of the neighborhoods once you veer off the main roads and relative affordability. You can definitely find homes that meet all the aforementioned criteria in North York (i.e. north Toronto) but you're also going to be paying at least 50% more.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why is southern York Region so expensive?

I think, for the most part, the southern part of York Region, spanning from the Pine Valley/Hwy 7 area all the way east through Thornhill and to Unionville, is fairly sought-after on the basis of the property lot sizes, suburban feel of the neighborhoods once you veer off the main roads and relative affordability. You can definitely find homes that meet all the aforementioned criteria in North York (i.e. north Toronto) but you're also going to be paying at least 50% more.

That's a good question. The best Houses in Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham are 2,3, even 4 million...

 

[James]

That's a good question. The best Houses in Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham are 2,3, even 4 million...

But make no mistake, that identical $2M, $3M or $4M house in York Region could easily be $3M, $6M or $8M in North York. For these types of homes, the building value far exceeds the land value in York whereas in north Toronto, the land value can account for half the property value.

 

[Eug]

But make no mistake, that identical $2M, $3M or $4M house in York Region could easily be $3M, $6M or $8M in North York. For these types of homes, the building value far exceeds the land value in York whereas in north Toronto, the land value can account for half the property value.

In North Toronto, some of the homes are near worthless compared to land values, if they're the original homes. That is, if they're the post-war 50s homes. However, most of those are gone now.

Places like much of York Region generally don't have these homes. They're often new divisions of McMansions.

In contrast, places like Scarborough still have huge amounts of post-war 50s era homes on decent sized lots, ripe for either complete renos or else teardowns.

 

[ehlow]

Just to be clear, when you guys are saying "North Toronto", you mean North York right? I just ask because sometimes "North Toronto" refers to the Yonge & Lawrence-Eglinton area (which was a village called North Toronto).

Following up on something earlier on this thread, I visited the Scarborough Bluffs and it is indeed an awesome walking or jogging trail. I also checked out Guild Park.

It will probably be even more beautiful once the trees & plants grow again however. I'll definitely go back.

I found a quiet residential road with a trail down to the Bluffs so I don't have to park in the main park parking lots.

 

[Eug]

Just to be clear, when you guys are saying "North Toronto", you mean North York right? I just ask because sometimes "North Toronto" refers to the Yonge & Lawrence-Eglinton area (which was a village called North Toronto).

Yeah, we should be be more specific, but I was in fact referring to both, even though they are different. I sometimes do get confused though to be honest, since they are contiguous with partially overlapping features.

Following up on something earlier on this thread, I visited the Scarborough Bluffs and it is indeed an awesome walking or jogging trail. I also checked out Guild Park.

It will probably be even more beautiful once the trees & plants grow again however. I'll definitely go back.

I found a quiet residential road with a trail down to the Bluffs so I don't have to park in the main park parking lots.

Glad you could make it out here, and glad you enjoyed it. Which residential road and parking lots are you referring to?

BTW, there was a proposal at one point (before the economic downturn) to pave some of those trails to make them more accessible to the general public, because many if not most of them are currently better described as hiking trails. However, to my surprise, most of my fellow Bluff dwellers were dead set against it, presumably precisely because it would make them more accessible to the general public (as intended), and would possibly bring cyclists as well.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

In North Toronto, some of the homes are near worthless compared to land values, if they're the original homes. That is, if they're the post-war 50s homes. However, most of those are gone now.

Places like much of York Region generally don't have these homes. They're often new divisions of McMansions.

In contrast, places like Scarborough still have huge amounts of post-war 50s era homes on decent sized lots, ripe for either complete renos or else teardowns.

But make no mistake, that identical $2M, $3M or $4M house in York Region could easily be $3M, $6M or $8M in North York. For these types of homes, the building value far exceeds the land value in York whereas in north Toronto, the land value can account for half the property value.

So presumably, when the housing bubble pops, these places in york would hurt the most. Because some of the house in Vaughan going for 2.5 million appeared to be overvalued.

 

[Eug]

So presumably, when the housing bubble pops, these places in york would hurt the most. Because some of the house in Vaughan going for 2.5 million appeared to be overvalued.

I'm curious what these Vaughan houses are appraised at, for insurance purposes, and how much the land is worth.

Cuz say for a house with much better than average finishes, and a large house at say 5000 square feet (not counting basement), the insurance may appraise it at say $225 per square foot, or about $1.125 million. The rest of the amount would be land cost. I didn't think land prices were high enough to justify $2.5 million homes, in this context. Are these homes larger (6000 square feet), or on much, much bigger plots of land (15000 square feet plus), or do they have much higher end finishes (eg. $250 square/foot) or some combination of that?

I'm just asking in general because I don't know the Vaughan market.