Smitherman's Transit plan

[Fresh Start]

As mentioned in another thread... the day Eglinton sees 200k riders, replacing EC-LRT will be the least of our concerns. Yonge & Spadina subways would both crush under such added pressure.

And the only way you go about resolving those issues before they arise IS TO PLAN AHEAD. Only in Toronto do "transit planners" suggest that building multiple parallel lines as a long-term solution i.e. LRTizing St Clair and extending it, building a Dixon-Lawrence-Lawrence East LRT (which will likely include major elevated segments), and starting up a local service commuter line along Canadian Pacific's only freight line across the city - at construction costs that will quintuple what LRT costs now.

Eglinton intersects more routes than any other corridor across the city and more people per square km call the area within a kilometre of that corridor their home. Both the Golden Mile and Richview go largely underdeveloped and with land area in the City getting scarcer to find that projected 1 million new residents coming to Toronto over the next 25 years could call these areas their home as well. If we build a DRL and Eglinton subway now with interlining capabilities engineered in from day one, much of the population would have zero use for either Bloor-Danforth or YUS subways. And thus LRT in the suburbs would not be necessary either because bus commutes to/from one's nearest subway stop would be significantly reduced. So when I call a spade a spade, I am sincere. Transit City was a politically motivated scheme that thought of regular transit user last. Don't believe me, compare subway usage to streetcars to buses.

 

[Fresh Start]

I'd love to see the quote where "kettal put it" anything like that.

Only when you support subway where there is no need for it. I just don't see justifying subway when the long-term peak-hourly load is only 4,000.

Yeah you're right, it was nfitz, but c'mon you guys are parroting eachother so much now that it's hard to keep track.

 

[Fresh Start]

Building a Sheppard East LRT will screw transit in Toronto for decades to come?

What a completely bizarre statement. I fail to see how this would be worse than keeping the bus service, and should be a significant improvement.

I really don't see the need for these completely hysterical posts.

It will screw up northeastern Toronto severely for decades to come. A route carrying 28,000 passengers a day doesn't need to be replaced with a light-rail line (btw, nice how you've screwed over West Rogue/Port Union residents by enforcing a transfer at Meadowvale). The same road-widening, railroad underpassing, utilities relocatiing that's being done for the light-rail could have been done to give the 190 bus its own private lane down the median of the street at several times less expense and with higher route frequencies to boot. This leaves open the possibility to complete the subway to its intended final destination.

 

[kettal]

And the only way you go about resolving those issues before they arise IS TO PLAN AHEAD. Only in Toronto do "transit planners" suggest that building multiple parallel lines as a long-term solution i.e. LRTizing St Clair and extending it, building a Dixon-Lawrence-Lawrence East LRT (which will likely include major elevated segments), and starting up a local service commuter line along Canadian Pacific's only freight line across the city - at construction costs that will quintuple what LRT costs now.

Eglinton intersects more routes than any other corridor across the city and more people per square km call the area within a kilometre of that corridor their home. Both the Golden Mile and Richview go largely underdeveloped and with land area in the City getting scarcer to find that projected 1 million new residents coming to Toronto over the next 25 years could call these areas their home as well. If we build a DRL and Eglinton subway now with interlining capabilities engineered in from day one, much of the population would have zero use for either Bloor-Danforth or YUS subways. And thus LRT in the suburbs would not be necessary either because bus commutes to/from one's nearest subway stop would be significantly reduced. So when I call a spade a spade, I am sincere. Transit City was a politically motivated scheme that thought of regular transit user last. Don't believe me, compare subway usage to streetcars to buses.

Oh good, you're going on yet another tangent,

Ok, let's pretend that 200,000 riders come out of the woodwork and all rush on to the new Eglinton Subway. Not LRT. Subway. Unless they just like to go to random destinations along Eglinton during rush hour (very few do), they will have to transfer to an intersecting transit route... like, say, Yonge. Oops, I just remembered, Yonge is already beyond capacity TODAY.

A DRL as far north as Eglinton in both the east and west would be required LONG before Eg ridership gets anywhere near subway levels. And guess what such a DRL's existence does? It makes any Eglinton subway totally redundant in terms of peak direction capacity.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Fresh Start argues for billions of dollars in new transit infrastructure in one thread while campaigning for Rob Ford and lower taxes in another. It's like we've all stepped outside of time and are catching a glimpse of parallel worlds.

 

[Fresh Start]

Oh good, you're going on yet another tangent,

Ok, let's pretend that 200,000 riders come out of the woodwork and all rush on to the new Eglinton Subway. Not LRT. Subway. Unless they just like to go to random destinations along Eglinton during rush hour (very few do), they will have to transfer to an intersecting transit route... like, say, Yonge. Oops, I just remembered, Yonge is already beyond capacity TODAY.

A DRL as far north as Eglinton in both the east and west would be required LONG before Eg ridership gets anywhere near subway levels. And guess what such a DRL's existence does? It makes any Eglinton subway totally redundant in terms of peak direction capacity.

Oh really, in AM peak we wouldn't have passenger flows to the affect of Mississauga/Brampton > Airport area > northern Etobicoke > Weston/Mt Dennis/York Centre > Spadina Line north > Yonge-Eglinton < Don Mills < Golden Mile < eastern Scarborough in high enough volumes to justify the expense of subways? Get serious. Close to one-quarter of Bloor-Danforth users alone stem from the 905, so by giving them an alternative more proximal to major population centres like SQ1, Erin Mills, Malton, Bramalea - they'll have greater incentive to switch. What's one-quarter of 480,000 riders? 120,000. I wonder how heavily the TTC's consultants mulled over that number before they threw out a projected ridership level of 5400 by 2031.

Today with no subway, the TTC's own stats tell a different story:

58 Malton = 11,250 of 15,000ppd or 703pphpd
112 West Mall = 3850 of 7700ppd or 241pphpd
111 East Mall = 3050 of 6100ppd or 191pphpd
46 Martin Grove = 8050 of 16,100ppd or 503pphpd
45 Kipling = 9250 of 18,500ppd or 578pphpd
37 Islington = 8300 of 16,600ppd of 519pphpd
73 Royal York = 8900ppd or 556.25pphpd
76 Scarlett = 7400ppd or 463pphpd
35 Jane = 19,500 of 39000ppd or 1219pphpd
89 Weston = 10,650 of 14,200ppd or 666pphpd
32 Eglinton West = 20,550 of 41,100 or 1284pphpd
---
Total for Eglinton West subway= 110,750ppd or 6922pphpd

You might claim that I'm being overly generous in my prediction of how many riders would switch, but this is just examplar of how we can coalesce various factors when determining density and demand levels. So if Etobicoke/Richview is producing these passengers volumes coming in, I can only imagine what the more densely populated areas through the central and eastern Eglinton corridor would yield with even more walk-in users. Under a light-rail system, you might see a small spike in ridership over the bus routes replaced (baring in mind the greater inconveniences they'll pose for riders - lower speeds in some cases, less frequency, less local stops, leaving the safety of the sidewalk in order to access it). However under a subway system with guaranteed speeds and frequency, most of those 6900 pph would be foolish not to transfer off at Eglinton.

Lastly, regarding the DRL, will residents living between Don Mills and Weston Rd travel counter-flow to the DRL when going downtown? Probably not. DRL and Eglinton should not be competing lines, both are critically needed. This is what I like about the DRLNow map. It recognizes that the airport is a primary destination for close to 100k travellers and area workers per day. Ideally we build Eglinton as a subway now because it allows us the opportunity to grant residents direct access to the airport no matter where they reside in the city. Interlining both Eglinton and the DRL between PIA and Mt Dennis before they branch off their separate ways is a sound investment that would generate frequent service both inbound and outbound all throughout the day. But even ahead of a DRL west extension through to Mt Dennis (a low priority for the forseeable future), Eglinton subway would still be alleviating the Yonge Line because many passnegers would simply disembark at Allen Stn to avoid the hordes coming down the pike from North York/York Region.

 

[Fresh Start]

Fresh Start argues for billions of dollars in new transit infrastructure in one thread while campaigning for Rob Ford and lower taxes in another. It's like we've all stepped outside of time and are catching a glimpse of parallel worlds.

Contrary to this shill's ongoing assertions, citizens of Toronto (even the conservative ones) don't hate paying taxes. What we hate is seeing our tax dollars being squandered by socialist clowns like Kyle Rae throwing themselves expensive parties on our dime. They are an affont to taxpayers and everything they claim to stand for. People are sick and tired of the socialist tax and spend mentality we've had to endure for almost a decade.

Give Torontonians a real return on our investment, a utility that will benefit all for generations to come, then we'll gladly pony up some of the costs.

 

[kettal]

Oh really, in AM peak we wouldn't have passenger flows to the affect of Mississauga/Brampton > Airport area > northern Etobicoke > Weston/Mt Dennis/York Centre > Spadina Line north > Yonge-Eglinton < Don Mills < Golden Mile < eastern Scarborough in high enough volumes to justify the expense of subways? Get serious. Close to one-quarter of Bloor-Danforth users alone stem from the 905, so by giving them an alternative more proximal to major population centres like SQ1, Erin Mills, Malton, Bramalea - they'll have greater incentive to switch. What's one-quarter of 480,000 riders? 120,000. I wonder how heavily the TTC's consultants mulled over that number before they threw out a projected ridership level of 5400 by 2031.

Today with no subway, the TTC's own stats tell a different story:

58 Malton = 11,250 of 15,000ppd or 703pphpd
112 West Mall = 3850 of 7700ppd or 241pphpd
111 East Mall = 3050 of 6100ppd or 191pphpd
46 Martin Grove = 8050 of 16,100ppd or 503pphpd
45 Kipling = 9250 of 18,500ppd or 578pphpd
37 Islington = 8300 of 16,600ppd of 519pphpd
73 Royal York = 8900ppd or 556.25pphpd
76 Scarlett = 7400ppd or 463pphpd
35 Jane = 19,500 of 39000ppd or 1219pphpd
89 Weston = 10,650 of 14,200ppd or 666pphpd
32 Eglinton West = 20,550 of 41,100 or 1284pphpd
---
Total for Eglinton West subway= 110,750ppd or 6922pphpd

You might claim that I'm being overly generous in my prediction of how many riders would switch, but this is just examplar of how we can coalesce various factors when determining density and demand levels. So if Etobicoke/Richview is producing these passengers volumes coming in, I can only imagine what the more densely populated areas through the central and eastern Eglinton corridor would yield with even more walk-in users. Under a light-rail system, you might see a small spike in ridership over the bus routes replaced (baring in mind the greater inconveniences they'll pose for riders - lower speeds in some cases, less frequency, less local stops, leaving the safety of the sidewalk in order to access it). However under a subway system with guaranteed speeds and frequency, most of those 6900 pph would be foolish not to transfer off at Eglinton.

I'm going to ignore the pathetic flaws in your arithmetic here, because it doesn't really matter to this conversation. Did you even read what I said? An eglinton subway attaining such high ridership is not a good thing, it's a big fucking problem.

What are these 200k commuters going to do when they arrive at Eglinton West station (or Yonge, if you prefer) and barely any of them can squueze themselves onto the train? What will they do? Turn around and go home? Maybe go back to the Jane Street bus they were on earlier? See where I'm going here?

Lastly, regarding the DRL, will residents living between Don Mills and Weston Rd travel counter-flow to the DRL when going downtown? Probably not. DRL and Eglinton should not be competing lines, both are critically needed. This is what I like about the DRLNow map. It recognizes that the airport is a primary destination for close to 100k travellers and area workers per day. Ideally we build Eglinton as a subway now because it allows us the opportunity to grant residents direct access to the airport no matter where they reside in the city. Interlining both Eglinton and the DRL between PIA and Mt Dennis before they branch off their separate ways is a sound investment that would generate frequent service both inbound and outbound all throughout the day. But even ahead of a DRL west extension through to Mt Dennis (a low priority for the forseeable future), Eglinton subway would still be alleviating the Yonge Line because many passnegers would simply disembark at Allen Stn to avoid the hordes coming down the pike from North York/York Region.

What the hell does this mean? Not be competing lines? A human is a single entity, he cannot be on both lines at the same time. he will have to choose one route. How can somebody possibly not choose between these competing routes? Perhaps cut themselves in half so they don't have to choose one or the other, and can ride on both at the same time? Of course they're competing, and the best one who will get people to the CBD in the fastest time will get the peak riders.

I'm sure that for many who happen to live in Central Eg, the DRL will not be their choice... but DRL will be the choice of everybody not in the central area, including Mississaugans, and every bus rider from your post.

 

[Fresh Start]

Ugh, does everything need several explanations before it gets through to you? I'm not advocating for overloaded subway lines anywhere, that's your headache. The key point to my argument is that subways do for a fact attract higher ridership than surface transit through mixed traffic (A), the DRL must be built using subway technology and must connect to the airport area somehow (B), and keeping the modes along both corridors compatible would allow for interlining of trips (plus the added benefit of sharing storage yards, vehicles, etc.) (C).

Look at Chicago. Many of its lines see no where as high PPH as YUS or B-D yet they're critically vital for residents to get around. 9000, 5400, 4000 PPH is all bullshit. Why Toronto considers cattle-car style transit as the norm is beyond me (maybe all the more justification for provincial management of the TTC). You know what else is bullshit, spending close to $7 billion on a two-thirds underground light-rail line @$350 million/km when TYSSE full-blown subway line with egregiously wasteful tunneled sections is only $304 million/km. Don't tell me if we're starting ECLRT next year that the rate of inflation will have risen that high. Don't tell me retrofitting the tunnel decades later and building an entirely new ROW on the outskirts won't cost billions of dollars more for future generations than building a subway now will cost us.

 

[kettal]

Ugh, does everything need several explanations before it gets through to you? I'm not advocating for overloaded subway lines anywhere, that's your headache. The key point to my argument is that subways do for a fact attract higher ridership than surface transit through mixed traffic (A), the DRL must be built using subway technology and must connect to the airport area somehow (B), and keeping the modes along both corridors compatible would allow for interlining of trips (plus the added benefit of sharing storage yards, vehicles, etc.) (C).

Look at Chicago. Many of its lines see no where as high PPH as YUS or B-D yet they're critically vital for residents to get around. 9000, 5400, 4000 PPH is all bullshit. Why Toronto considers cattle-car style transit as the norm is beyond me (maybe all the more justification for provincial management of the TTC). You know what else is bullshit, spending close to $7 billion on a two-thirds underground light-rail line @$350 million/km when TYSSE full-blown subway line with egregiously wasteful tunneled sections is only $304 million/km. Don't tell me if we're starting ECLRT next year that the rate of inflation will have risen that high. Don't tell me retrofitting the tunnel decades later and building an entirely new ROW on the outskirts won't cost billions of dollars more for future generations than building a subway now will cost us.

And where exactly did I argue against any of this? Who are you even arguing with? You must have me confused with nfitz or somebody else yet again.

 

[Fresh Start]

^ You know that I was responding to your prior post, but since you can't seem to grasp that, I'll use the quote bubbles.

I'm going to ignore the pathetic flaws in your arithmetic here, because it doesn't really matter to this conversation. Did you even read what I said? An eglinton subway attaining such high ridership is not a good thing, it's a big fucking problem.

What are these 200k commuters going to do when they arrive at Eglinton West station (or Yonge, if you prefer) and barely any of them can squueze themselves onto the train? What will they do? Turn around and go home? Maybe go back to the Jane Street bus they were on earlier? See where I'm going here?

There are no flaws in my arithmetic. The stats came from the TTC and dividing total route figures is how I arrived at the numbers. If you feel that I have errored and have a PPHPD formula to present to me to indicate where I've gone wrong, feel free to do so.

And this 200k stat is meaningless. Like I just said earlier, if only you were paying attention, that 200k would be split up between Eglinton Crosstown subway and a DRL to the airport via Eglinton. INTERLINING. If the majority of that 200k is heading for the downtown core, they would not need to travel as far in as Allen or Yonge-Eglinton, they would not even need to switch trains at Mount Dennis. All they would have to do is board the designated train at whatever station they enter the system from and be on their way. Combined headways along the Richview-Dixon ROW could be double that of a typical subway (2'35'' halved). No more reliance on Kipling/Islington Stns for 905 West or northern Etobicoke, they'd all be captured earlier and spared the bottlenecks at St George and Bloor-Yonge.

What the hell does this mean? Not be competing lines? A human is a single entity, he cannot be on both lines at the same time. he will have to choose one route. How can somebody possibly not choose between these competing routes? Perhaps cut themselves in half so they don't have to choose one or the other, and can ride on both at the same time? Of course they're competing, and the best one who will get people to the CBD in the fastest time will get the peak riders.

I can only hope that people viewing this character assassination will have the good sense to comprehend what it is that I meant here. Competing lines, as in competing priorities. They're both needed. And since Eglinton's on the brink of being botched up forever with LRT, I'd say Eglinton subway priority is even more urgent. At least the downtown as its reliable, frequent, speedy streetcars... oh wait.

I'm sure that for many who happen to live in Central Eg, the DRL will not be their choice... but DRL will be the choice of everybody not in the central area, including Mississaugans, and every bus rider from your post.

Again, DRL West is not as high a priority as Eglinton West. Eglinton West obviously would and should be built first. Besides wouldn't all those bus riding folk from my post not to have to first travel in the peak direction towards the DRL in order to access it? Methinks it'd be faster to do so via Eglinton than via Bloor, so they would be contributing heavily into Eglinton peak hour projections.

And where exactly did I argue against any of this? Who are you even arguing with?

The general tone of your posts is that the LRT across Eglinton is justified although its running into cost projections that exceed that of a subways. If most people had to choose between 14 kms of subways or 13 kms of underground ROW LRT plus a few miles of the same line running at-level through the highwaylike traffic conditions of the Golden Mile, just which one the majority would choose?

 

[andrewpmk]

Only in Toronto do we ever consider building tunneled subways in low-density suburban areas (Sheppard etc.) In Vancouver, we build elevated SkyTrain. In Australia, we build high-frequency commuter trains that make the GO Train look pathetic. In the US, we build LRT, subways are too expensive to even consider. Even the Europeans are building a lot of LRT now (subways are reserved for areas that already have quite high densities). Only the Asians, which actually have the densities to support a subway, are building a lot of subway lines now (look at how much density there is along the subways of Hong Kong or Shanghai, it makes Yonge look like a joke).

Now, if a LRT attracts enough development to justify a subway (e.g. along the vacant fields of Richview and the big box stores of Golden Mile), then by all means convert it to a subway, but it will be decades before this is needed. And building LRTs with tunneled segments that are designed to be converted to subways at a future date is not a new idea - Brussels has been doing it for years.

 

[kettal]

The general tone of your posts is that the LRT across Eglinton is justified although its running into cost projections that exceed that of a subways. If most people had to choose between 14 kms of subways or 13 kms of underground ROW LRT plus a few miles of the same line running at-level through the highwaylike traffic conditions of the Golden Mile, just which one the majority would choose?

Here's a free tip: if you are going to use the reply function on this message board, please make your reply relevant to the quoted message. I don't have time to care about how you misinterpret my "general tone" (?) and then rant incoherently on some unrelated tangent.

 

[Fresh Start]

Here's a free tip: if you are going to use the reply function on this message board, please make your reply relevant to the quoted message. I don't have time to care about how you misinterpret my "general tone" (?) and then rant incoherently on some unrelated tangent.

I was being relevant. You said:

Ok, let's pretend that 200,000 riders come out of the woodwork and all rush on to the new Eglinton Subway. Not LRT. Subway. Unless they just like to go to random destinations along Eglinton during rush hour (very few do), they will have to transfer to an intersecting transit route... like, say, Yonge. Oops, I just remembered, Yonge is already beyond capacity TODAY.

A DRL as far north as Eglinton in both the east and west would be required LONG before Eg ridership gets anywhere near subway levels. And guess what such a DRL's existence does? It makes any Eglinton subway totally redundant in terms of peak direction capacity.

How does my posts not correlate into the issues you that raised here? We are talking about subway capacity concerns, are we not? I am telling you that no Toronto subway should be stuffed to the rafters with passengers- not Eglinton, DRL, Sheppard, BD or YUS. It's inhumane. We are not caged animals. We pay a lot to use the transit service to not be inconvenienced by the hassles of car ownership in the city. Yonge is beyond capacity today precisely because we refuse to to build complimentary lines to take some pressure off of it. Eglinton's an alleviator. Sure many passengers will still disembark at Yonge, but many still will be through passengers en route to Don Mills or the airport or SQ1, wherever. Bloor-Danforth is at capacity now too and a DRL doesn't address that well at all. The need for a second crosstown subway is past due, and even a phase 1 "stubway" built with the same funding set aside for ECLRT would fulfill that crosstown aspect if connecting Mt Dennis to Don Mills or the airport to Yonge-Eglinton.

You also overlooked the big point about potentially interlining the DRL with the Eglinton West ROW through to Pearson, a huge reason to keep the modes used along both routes compatible. And if not interlined, people from the Mississauga border inwards will utilize the Eglinton subway in the peak direction to intercept the DRL and both arms of YUS. Thus your yammering on about redundancy holds no water.

In an ideal world, we would not be celebratorily looking at a half million people everyday clamoring onto a subway line as a success; I'd rather see five lines spanning the city landscape only carrying about 150k a piece per day. But I suppose now you'll say that I'm going off on a tangent again, so what's the use in trying to reach an understanding with you.

 

[kettal]

I'm not even going to reattempt explaining it to you. The fundamental flaw in your logic is blindingly obvious to everybody except you. I suggest you go back and read this page again, slowly. Maybe draw a timeline on a piece of paper of the construction schedule you are proposing and think about what points in the timeline there would be a glaring problem. That's all I'm going to help you with, you've had enough hints.

Don't come back until you get to your "a ha!" moment and you've figured it out.