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SmartTrack (Proposed)

crs1026 said:
Have you ever taken the GO train to Kitchener?

- Paul
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how does that refute what I said? WHO GIVES up transit due to an extra 2 min wait for transit. I guess people should give up riding buses as they get caught in traffic with cars and they are kept waiting for a lot more than 2 min. I live in Toronto and have never been on a GO bus or train
 
TOareaFan said:
Because not all people in all suburban stations would be getting onto express trains I presume.
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Your presumptions are incorrect.

Any diesel trains or electrified locomotive that are still operating for the suburban network will never be stopping at any of the stations in the GO RER network, which is where the Smarttrack stations in question lie. The Smarttrack stations and all other stations will only be serviced by RER EMU electric trains within the RER network.

That makes the suburban trains all express in comparison to the service offered today, and adding or losing any RER stations a moot point when considering the suburban network, as they will bypass that area anyways.

The outer region trains will stop at the last station being serviced by RER, or at Union, with the intention that those riding these trains can transfer to the RER service if they need to get to one of the stations inbetween.
 
Palma said:
how does that refute what I said? WHO GIVES up transit due to an extra 2 min wait for transit. I guess people should give up riding buses as they get caught in traffic with cars and they are kept waiting for a lot more than 2 min. I live in Toronto and have never been on a GO bus or train
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Your point is that we can just keep incrementally adding stops (and thereby lengthening commute) and people will just suck it up because they have no option? In that case why spend the billions at all, people will sit in their cars where at least they have privacy and personal space.

Kitchener is what happens when GO tries to serve everybody from a bare bones stopping service. The case for transit in Toronto is very much about reducing commuting times. The return on transit investment is frequently quantified as the value of the minutes saved. The various quantitative predictive models attempt to capture this.

"Suck it up" is a pretty poor starting premise for planning public transportation.

- Paul
 
robmausser said:
Your presumptions are incorrect.

Any diesel trains or electrified locomotive that are still operating for the suburban network will never be stopping at any of the stations in the GO RER network, which is where the Smarttrack stations in question lie. The Smarttrack stations and all other stations will only be serviced by RER EMU electric trains within the RER network.

That makes the suburban trains all express in comparison to the service offered today, and adding or losing any RER stations a moot point when considering the suburban network, as they will bypass that area anyways.

The outer region trains will stop at the last station being serviced by RER, or at Union, with the intention that those riding these trains can transfer to the RER service if they need to get to one of the stations inbetween.
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Maybe...but (and I will use an example here) someone on the KW GO line that was headed to Malton, Etobicoke North, Weston or Bloor (all stations currently on their line) would be slowed down by having to change trains at Bramalea to get to them no?

...this is not a slow down directly attributable to the new station at Liberty Village....but if the change at Bramalea is required to deliver on that service model then it is a factor. I wish I knew more about the service levels/top patterns on the lines with the 3 stations that seem to be causing the discussion...but this might be a factor.
 
TOareaFan said:
Maybe...but (and I will use an example here) someone on the KW GO line that was headed to Malton, Etobicoke North, Weston or Bloor (all stations currently on their line) would be slowed down by having to change trains at Bramalea to get to them no?

...this is not a slow down directly attributable to the new station at Liberty Village....but if the change at Bramalea is required to deliver on that service model then it is a factor. I wish I knew more about the service levels/top patterns on the lines with the 3 stations that seem to be causing the discussion...but this might be a factor.
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I should say, it is also a service model that will make it less likely for people west of Bramalea using rail to get to the airport.

I do about, on average, one business trip a month that involves same day travel...I have been waiting for evening GO service so that I can start taking the train to the airport.....I currently can take a train to Weston and switch to UP to the airport but on the return trip I usually get home too late and if I took UP to Weston I would be "stranded"....really looking forward to those trains running in the evening......but even I would not do that if my trip to the airport was GO to Bramalea...switch trains....ReR to Weston...switch trains.....UP to airport.....repeating (in reverse) on the way home.

It really surprises me that none of the "regular" GO trains are going to be all stop....I get (and exepected) that there would be a mix of express and local service...just did not realize that every single "regular" GO train was going to be express east of Bramalea.
 
TOareaFan said:
I should say, it is also a service model that will make it less likely for people west of Bramalea using rail to get to the airport.....
It really surprises me that none of the "regular" GO trains are going to be all stop....I get (and exepected) that there would be a mix of express and local service...just did not realize that every single "regular" GO train was going to be express east of Bramalea.
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The airport seems like such a no-brainer place to stop that even the closer-to-express trains ought to stop there. I wonder if that should be the transfer hub. Express doesn't have to mean "no stops at all".

It makes sense ridership wise for the all-stops "inner zone" trains to run all the way to central Brampton, which is about the same distance from Union as Oakville on LSW. Once the bypass removes conflict with CN freight, Bramalea seems like the wrong place to link the two services. Maybe 'express' trains have to stop twice, or maybe people have to backtrack from Malton. I doubt there is an ideal answer, but the modelling may help optimise.

LSW is the precedent that I would point to as an outer zone/inner zone service (except that LSW doesn't have an airport). There is no perfect answer here either - while Oakville is the traditional last stop for express, GO periodically tweaks where 'express' trains stop. It's like the quote about the invention of the diesel engine - the only thing that worked right from the get-go was the dipstick. Every thing else had to be refined. We may know enough to shoot down really dumb ideas, but we may not know the optimum until we try.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
The airport seems like such a no-brainer place to stop that even the closer-to-express trains ought to stop there. I wonder if that should be the transfer hub. Express doesn't have to mean "no stops at all".
Click to expand...

I was just responding to someone that said
robmausser said:
The outer region trains will stop at the last station being serviced by RER, or at Union,
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Since the current model for the KW line is ReR to Bramalea that is the example I used/gave.

On that particular line (given current infrastructure) I think Weston is the ideal transfer spot......it is a decent station, with GO and UP service and anyone trying to get to the airport is one stop away on UP if they transfer trains there.

I like Weston as a transfer spot so much that I have even suggested that in our current environment, if we can't introduce weekend and evening trains to the line we should just have a 6 car train shuttling between Weston and the furthest possible point west on the line during the evenings and weekends and start building ridership.

But if the model going forward is that everyone who wants to get off before Union has to change trains at Bramalea....then I do believe the studies that say some people will just drive instead.
 
TOareaFan said:
Maybe...but (and I will use an example here) someone on the KW GO line that was headed to Malton, Etobicoke North, Weston or Bloor (all stations currently on their line) would be slowed down by having to change trains at Bramalea to get to them no?

...this is not a slow down directly attributable to the new station at Liberty Village....but if the change at Bramalea is required to deliver on that service model then it is a factor. I wish I knew more about the service levels/top patterns on the lines with the 3 stations that seem to be causing the discussion...but this might be a factor.
Click to expand...

The existing commuter trains may stop at existing stations along the RER network (Bloor, Weston etc) the current understanding is they won't, especially during rush hour, but that might change. However they will not stop at any of the newly built RER stations like St.Clair, Liberty, etc.

This is because the platforms won't be long enough to accommodate a 12 car GO train. They are being designed for strictly RER service.

So, im perplexed how stations that the commuter suburban trains can't even physically stop at will affect their service levels...
 
robmausser said:
The existing commuter trains may stop at existing stations along the RER network (Bloor, Weston etc) the current understanding is they won't, especially during rush hour, but that might change. However they will not stop at any of the newly built RER stations like St.Clair, Liberty, etc.

This is because the platforms won't be long enough to accommodate a 12 car GO train. They are being designed for strictly RER service.

So, im perplexed how stations that the commuter suburban trains can't even physically stop at will affect their service levels...
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the study, then be based on the current understanding? So if the smarttrack/rer currently planned service model forces a change of trains on people heading to those stations (new or old) then travel times are increased...so that might be the explanation.

As I have said, forcing people on the KW line to change trains at Bramalea if their intent was to head to the airport via UP at Weston or onto the B-D subway at Bloor is just a recipe for failure.
 
crs1026 said:
The airport seems like such a no-brainer place to stop that even the closer-to-express trains ought to stop there. I wonder if that should be the transfer hub. Express doesn't have to mean "no stops at all".

It makes sense ridership wise for the all-stops "inner zone" trains to run all the way to central Brampton, which is about the same distance from Union as Oakville on LSW. Once the bypass removes conflict with CN freight, Bramalea seems like the wrong place to link the two services. Maybe 'express' trains have to stop twice, or maybe people have to backtrack from Malton. I doubt there is an ideal answer, but the modelling may help optimise.

LSW is the precedent that I would point to as an outer zone/inner zone service (except that LSW doesn't have an airport). There is no perfect answer here either - while Oakville is the traditional last stop for express, GO periodically tweaks where 'express' trains stop. It's like the quote about the invention of the diesel engine - the only thing that worked right from the get-go was the dipstick. Every thing else had to be refined. We may know enough to shoot down really dumb ideas, but we may not know the optimum until we try.

- Paul
Click to expand...

Since Clarkson is a very busy stop, some expresses stop there.

GO Transit is very stuck in their ways. Express to them means non-stop to a certain point, then local stops after. It works when you have limited track space and you're moving commuters to/from one common destination (Union Station) but as employment clusters elsewhere emerge (Airport, Liberty Village, First Gulf's East Harbour), and connectivity to other major transit lines is realized as important, operations will have to be re-thought.
 
TOareaFan said:
Wouldn't the study, then be based on the current understanding? So if the smarttrack/rer currently planned service model forces a change of trains on people heading to those stations (new or old) then travel times are increased...so that might be the explanation.

As I have said, forcing people on the KW line to change trains at Bramalea if their intent was to head to the airport via UP at Weston or onto the B-D subway at Bloor is just a recipe for failure.
Click to expand...

I'm reminded of my Marketing 101 prof and the 3 P's....marketing is all about segments, you have to think in slices because one product model won't fit all needs.

The issue is how many different types of trains will fit in the corridor, and what the relative numbers of people and costs/benefits will be. As you say, it seems absolutely foolish to pass up the Airport market by forcing a transfer at Bramalea. How many other stops have a significant ridership segment? If we insist on connections to each higher-order node, we have to consider stops at Mount Dennis, Bloor, and (with the Relief Line on the horizon) Liberty. And what if Finch is extended to the Airport? And what if GTAA isn't willing to extend the Link all the way to Malton, and people have to take a bus from RER to the terminal as well? How many of these stops and transfers can we add before the express service loses rather than gain riders?

Bramalea is the terminus primarily because, pre bypass, it was as far as elecctrification could go without fouling freight lines. If that is no longer the case, would a terminus at central Brampton or Mount Pleasant capture more riders? Are people OK with taking the bus over to Bramalea? Or driving there? Personally I would want the stopping line to go that extra bit.

There sure are a lot of moving pieces to this one. We probably need data to get beyond an exchange of opinions.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I'm reminded of my Marketing 101 prof and the 3 P's....marketing is all about segments, you have to think in slices because one product model won't fit all needs.

The issue is how many different types of trains will fit in the corridor, and what the relative numbers of people and costs/benefits will be. As you say, it seems absolutely foolish to pass up the Airport market by forcing a transfer at Bramalea. How many other stops have a significant ridership segment? If we insist on connections to each higher-order node, we have to consider stops at Mount Dennis, Bloor, and (with the Relief Line on the horizon) Liberty. And what if Finch is extended to the Airport? And what if GTAA isn't willing to extend the Link all the way to Malton, and people have to take a bus from RER to the terminal as well? How many of these stops and transfers can we add before the express service loses rather than gain riders?

Bramalea is the terminus primarily because, pre bypass, it was as far as elecctrification could go without fouling freight lines. If that is no longer the case, would a terminus at central Brampton or Mount Pleasant capture more riders? Are people OK with taking the bus over to Bramalea? Or driving there? Personally I would want the stopping line to go that extra bit.

There sure are a lot of moving pieces to this one. We probably need data to get beyond an exchange of opinions.

- Paul
Click to expand...

You are right, and you brought up another point

The issue is how many different types of trains will fit in the corridor,
Click to expand...

This will even change when they implement a PTC system on the corridors.

So the studies can be done looking at X amount of trains fitting in a corridor, when they are using the current signalling system as the data for their studies.

So there are many variables that haven't been nailed down, and thus its really inappropriate to take any studies with too much weight right now, until everything is considered.
 
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