SmartTrack (Proposed)

[nhui06]

This. Bash Smarttrack all you want on its technical merits, but the fact that the SSE will cost $4.9 billion and the DRL $.6.7! billion for just the king to pape section, I don't understand where people think the money for this will come from if we can't afford a billion for above ground 6 stations.

Not to mention this SmartTrack/GO RER will probably be the fastest to complete out of all the other proposals and we will see more immediate impact.

 

[steveintoronto]

Rob: Thanks for that. You posted similar a few days back, I didn't quite know how to interpret it, so let it ride, so many thanks for the emphatic buttress on the point.

The cupboard is bare....and rather than deny that, the charade of endless announcements goes on and on. I'm dubious of quibbling on details, as the *gist* is so glaring like an elephant in the room that no-one is admitting to being there.

On RER I have some faith. None to little on electrification, all the 'motions' going on besides. I just can't take many of the claims of "coming" seriously, at least in the next decade.

What I can see is *making do with we now have*...like anyone who admits to being broke does. We have surplus F59s and coaches. Why are we not using them? But that's an argument beside the big one: *There is no money*!

So how do we deal with this? Put it on plastic? Hardly, we're paying far too much interest on debt as it is, even in a low overnight rate regime at present.

We let the Investors make a presentation, then build a project, and pay them on a *user basis*. My preference? Of course not, be great if all transit was in the public domain, but it's just not going to happen, unless we accept the status quo as the future.

Not to mention this SmartTrack/GO RER will probably be the fastest to complete out of all the other proposals and we will see more immediate impact.

If Tory came clean, admitted it's not going to work, and we need Plan B, he'd have a lot of support. And Plan B is to make do with what is extant already of the Georgetown Corridor south from Bramalea, and run short (three car) F59 drawn consists down to Union every fifteen minutes, perhaps east up to (almost) STC as the next stage, and then when electrification happens (Oh Lordy!) it can be done with EMUs as originally proposed. Until that time, Tory can have salvation by pioneering 'EconoTrack', albeit fare is going to have to be GO. It's their toy, they must charge what they will. The upside? City only pays for the 'halts' (in lieu of proper stations) and the little needed extra trackage to make it happen. It's GO's baby in every other respect.

It's so incredibly pragmatic, it won't register on the Max Factor PR radar...it fails the Goebbels test: "If you tell them a small lie, they won't believe you. Tell them a big one, and they will..."

 

[Rainforest]

I can't wait til this falls flat on it's face and Toronto can focus on getting the DRL and SSE funded and completed.

Don't hold your breath for that. SmartTrack has been watered down enough to make the implementation of what's left of it relatively easy.

 

[Rainforest]

K, hold on. $200M per station is the low estimate? How does such a high price make any sense? Yes they're 300 metres long, but surely these stations would be in the $50M range... it's a GO platform with a couple of new stairs/elevators. They're the most basic of basic.

I did not say that it is the "low" estimate; I said it is worth building for that price.

Actually, the price seems a bit excessive to me if platforms plus stairs/elevators is all that's needed; I do not know what else is involved. Maybe extra rolling stock is costed in, or perhaps widening the corridors / adding more tracks is needed in some areas.

But still, $200M per a major transit station, 3 of the stations being located in the busy city core, and 3 others connecting to major surface routes, is not a bad deal comparing to the cost of subway lines these days.

 

[steveintoronto]

Without getting into the very valid argument of *actual* costs (no-one really knows, it's all abstract projection at this point)

(Est Price) is not a bad deal comparing to the cost of subway lines these days.

is a point many of us are in agreement with, albeit as to *what constitutes a station* is still a very good question. And that has a massive impact on cost. I use the term "halts":

2. (Railways) chiefly Brit a minor railway station, without permanent buildings
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/halt

24th August 2011, 17:05

#5
exile
Established Member

Join Date: 16 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,186

A halt was an unstaffed station, with no goods facilities. However not all railway companies used this term. A "platform" was staffed but at a minimal level and again with no goods facilities.

The term is not officially used now.
[...]

24th August 2011, 19:20

#8
David Goddard
Member



Join Date: 8 Aug 2011
Location: Reading
Posts: 990

First Great Western revived the term in 2008 for two stations on the Liskeard to Looe line. Coombe became "Coombe Junction Halt" while St Keyne became "St Keyne Wishing Well Halt"

Full report at: http://www.carfreedaysout.com/news/looeaction.pdf

These are shown as such in the current NRT and FGW timetable books, however only the latter carries the suffix on the FGW website map:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/D...Map%20FGW2.pdf

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50952

I highly recommend reading the many well informed posts there, some North American, and Canadians...*Torontonians* less than a century ago knew many halts within the City Limits, esp on the Belt Line. (The first commuter railway in Toronto)

It's time to get back to the basics if OffTrack is to get back on-track. That is the huge disparity in estimates of station costs we're seeing quoted. We can't afford a Cadillac! We need little more than what an LRT station will offer.

Ask most people who support ST: "If you had to ride in a truck you could afford and it would be here tomorrow, or a Cadillac that we're having trouble getting financing for, what would you choose?"

Think about it, and think about what has to be done to save NotverysmartTrack.

Excellent discourse here:
Four Ways that SmartTrack Could See More Problems
It has political support, but it's still an unfunded plan with billions in questionable assumptions.

By Neville Park

 

[kEiThZ]

It's not 200M per station. The way I understand it, the ST quote involves a certain share of all costs associated with the Smart Track proposal. Ergo, we'll be paying a share of GO's projects.

And I'm more than fine with that. I can believe that a city of 2.5 million people has an issue raising a billion for a transit proposal. Ottawa is one third the size and raise a lot more for their transit initiatives. And is moving forward with Phase II. Torontonians are cheapskates.

 

[ssiguy2]

What I don't get is why the Western section terminus is Eglinton. Why don't they just continue the corridor up to at least Etobicoke North? It would hundreds of thousands of more people and major employers/students in the Humber area.

 

[steveintoronto]

What I don't get is why the Western section terminus is Eglinton. Why don't they just continue the corridor up to at least Etobicoke North? It would hundreds of thousands of more people and major employers/students in the Humber area.

Terminating at Eglinton is absurd. With the demise of NonStartTrack (also referred to as 'BackTrack'), and especially the section from the point you mention west along Eglinton, the dead but still twitching proposal remains only to Eglinton.

In the event, the real RER will, as always proposed, run to Bramalea until such time as GO gets possession of the K/W Corridor along its length to K/W. It's missing a crucial section of ownership from Bramalea to Georgetown, which remains a freight line w/ secondary passenger access.

 

[robmausser]

What I don't get is why the Western section terminus is Eglinton. Why don't they just continue the corridor up to at least Etobicoke North? It would hundreds of thousands of more people and major employers/students in the Humber area.

I think technically it still can, since Smarttrack isn't really a "service" its a modification of a service now, GO RER.

The trains are GO RER trains, theres no special Smarttrack trains.

So all you need to do is change the "fare equalization" to extend to Etobicoke North. Thats it.

Just program PRESTO so that riding to Etobicoke North is a TTC fare, or at least is a significant discount if transferring to/from the TTC.

That's all it would take to make "Smarttrack" go more northerly along the Weston Corridor.

A station at Woodbine area would be nice too, but I think thats wishful thinking at this point. Metrolinx decided its not building it in this interim, so guess who would have to foot the bill...

 

[crs1026]

Just program PRESTO so that riding to Etobicoke North is a TTC fare, or at least is a significant discount if transferring to/from the TTC.

That's all it would take to make "Smarttrack" go more northerly along the Weston Corridor.

A station at Woodbine area would be nice too, but I think thats wishful thinking at this point. Metrolinx decided its not building it in this interim, so guess who would have to foot the bill...

If ST had been positioned all along as just an enhancement to the GO/RER operating formula, we'd be miles ahead on getting it going. We've spent two+ years having a disfunctional debate that just circled around the concept.

When GO does get serious about RER along the Bramalea line, we may see changes to station locations in Etobicoke. The current Etobicoke North is a temporary facility that is "good enough" for the moment but not necessarily the best down the road. I don't care which level pays for it, just wish it was happening a whole lot faster, whatever "it" will be.

- Paul

 

[amnesiajune]

When GO does get serious about RER along the Bramalea line, we may see changes to station locations in Etobicoke. The current Etobicoke North is a temporary facility that is "good enough" for the moment but not necessarily the best down the road. I don't care which level pays for it, just wish it was happening a whole lot faster, whatever "it" will be.

The problem with RER is that the whole business case depends on fare integration. There's no demand for it with the current fare structure because it ends up costing $5.00 or more on top of regular TTC fare. At the very least, there needs to be a co-fare so that taking Go Transit only costs an extra dollar or two, but I doubt even that would justify the service. It really needs to run on the same fares as the TTC within Toronto, just like the Paris RER, but that'll be a bitch to figure out (for splitting up the subsidy) for as long as we have our stupid two-tiered transit system.

 

[steveintoronto]

The problem with RER is that the whole business case depends on fare integration. There's no demand for it with the current fare structure because it ends up costing $5.00 or more on top of regular TTC fare. At the very least, there needs to be a co-fare so that taking Go Transit only costs an extra dollar or two, but I doubt even that would justify the service. It really needs to run on the same fares as the TTC within Toronto, just like the Paris RER, but that'll be a bitch to figure out (for splitting up the subsidy) for as long as we have our stupid two-tiered transit system.

And that, right there, dooms PartTrack. It won't happen for years to come. And when it does, to enable HalfTrack, it won't be co-fare, it will be whatever the GO fare structure is at the time, but hopefully calculated at the same rate as the TTC, same fare per distance, at least within the shared operating area, or they'll never mesh. That is the case in London, Paris and any other city where one fare gets you onto all integrated carriers. It's the only way to do it. Metrolinx will budge on that, TTC won't.

So we're stuck. As the Admiral stated, it's really the only cause d'etre left of PartTrack, and Toronto (via Tory) is making it impossible.

I have to wonder, and perhaps a poster has already done the math on this...for all the money touted to pay for TartTrack, if that was just a subsidy paid to GO by the City, how many years could passengers travel on a TTC fare on the affected section of RER? We're talking Billions$, someone care to do the arithmetic?

Edit to Add: And that last comment isn't cynical, the math just might show that it's *cheaper* just to transfer the money to GO's RER operating budget than to run TankTrack as touted along the RER Toronto section.

just wish it was happening a whole lot faster, whatever "it" will be.

I know some posters are patient, a hell of a lot more than I am, and accept the endless announcements with faith...perhaps it's an age thing...but implementation on a number of 'eventualities' is not only not within grasping distance...it's downright *abstract*. Who can blame us for being skeptics?

I live right next to the Western Corridor, and UPX is now very handy, but it's still using a Cadillac for a taxi for commuting up to Weston or down to Union.

It's past time to get 'frequent service' on that corridor up to Bramalea, all day, and the equipment to do it, at least to Union, is already extant. Even if it has a slow start like UPX, it allows interconnecting buses to also run on 'frequent service' to meet them, and start building the bus networks out from that. Once that builds up, the 'preRER' will prove itself.

And it can be done within a year with the existing stations. (Bramalea western section almost finished)

 

[crs1026]

And it can be done within a year with the existing stations. (Bramalea western section almost finished)

I'm not so sure. Needs a fourth track with platforms at Bloor and Weston, the new tunnel at the 401, and station work and track in Etobicoke.

The track is the easy bit, but the platform at Bloor will take some civil work along the bike path (my fear is a TPAP will be needed) and potentially more underpaths. Same at Weston - more underpaths and a whole new platform. Again, not 100% sure the last EA covers all that. Don't know how much was roughed in underground during GTS at Bloor and Weston. New Etobicoke station(s) - more TPAP? And of course, electrification.

The question becomes - can you start running more frequent trains on the existing tracks with all those "Rule 42" zones in the way? Probably not a good idea, so gotta get that work going asap.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm not so sure. Needs a fourth track with platforms at Bloor and Weston, the new tunnel at the 401, and station work and track in Etobicoke.

The track is the easy bit, but the platform at Bloor will take some civil work along the bike path (my fear is a TPAP will be needed) and potentially more underpaths. Same at Weston - more underpaths and a whole new platform. Again, not 100% sure the last EA covers all that. Don't know how much was roughed in underground during GTS at Bloor and Weston. New Etobicoke station(s) - more TPAP? And of course, electrification.

The question becomes - can you start running more frequent trains on the existing tracks with all those "Rule 42" zones in the way? Probably not a good idea, so gotta get that work going asap.

- Paul

These are good points, but what prevents a Bramalea frequent service from inter-meshing with UPX as is done at present with both northbound and southbound Mt Pleasant trains runniing simultaneously? It might take implementation of PTC to safely increase the sustained intensity of use in the corridor, but seven minute headways should be do-able.

And of course, electrification.

Not necessary at this stage. Again, F59s are already pulling 6 car consists up and back to Mr Pleasant on an hourly schedule, same locos pulling three coach trains will be able to keep a tighter schedule. EMUs could then replace them when (Oh Lordy, Lordy) electricity finally comes.

An analysis of what is possible with minimally added track and/or signalling would be valuable. Obviously the nothern-most stretch into Bramalea would be single track into the now two platforms there, so one comes in, other goes out alternately.

 

[rbt]

The problem with RER is that the whole business case depends on fare integration. There's no demand for it with the current fare structure because it ends up costing $5.00 or more on top of regular TTC fare.

The current UPX service (including pricing) shows there is more than "no demand" in that price range and that line isn't very good (poor integration with TTC bus service, not very long, etc.). I don't know what demand might exist, just that it's more than none.