Should Transit City be cancelled? A re-prioritization of how to allocate the funding.

[kEiThZ]

I would agree with that. Viva Blue provides excellent, frequent service in the Yonge corridor. There's no immediate need to extend the subway past Steeles.

Bunching and bus congestion.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Bunching and bus congestion is an understatement.

Fix'd

 

[leopetr]

Fix'd

There's a lot of bus congestion between Finch and Steeles, but I don't really notice it as being a problem north of there. I am more of a Viva Pink (Finch to Highway 7) rather than Viva Blue rider these days, though.

 

[Paleo]

Considering the massive pressures the city budget is under--we don't even have the money to pay for the TTC we have now--it's perfectly legitimate to wonder why we should be replacing one money losing bus service with one even bigger money losing subway service.

As Whoaccio pointed out, overbuilding lines is just as wasteful as building massive bus stations because it costs a lot of money in borrowed capital and operations. This is something that is very difficult to justify considering the dire state of the city's finances. Unlike vaunted cities like Chicago, the province and feds aren't dropping bags of money on us to run empty trains.

It'd be another story completely if there were at least volumes that wouldn't make it a net loss versus what we have now. Perhaps we could build Sheppard and cut headways to 20 minutes like in other cities? lol

 

[Hipster Duck]

Sheppard subway to STC; replace SRT with subway; DRL subway from Eglinton to Eglinton, keep Eglinton LRT as is but use Richview ROW instead of street median; keep WWLRT; keep BRT plan; ditch the rest.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Considering the massive pressures the city budget is under--we don't even have the money to pay for the TTC we have now--it's perfectly legitimate to wonder why we should be replacing one money losing bus service with one even bigger money losing subway service.

Actually, the Yonge Extension could easily get the TTC more money. YRT will be the operator funneling all the riders onto the Yonge line, so the TTC will be able to charge them a double fare while not having to provide the money-intensive feeder bus service. Since it won't have to provide the bus service, it's basically getting boatloads of "free" passengers, ready to pay the extra TTC fare for the subway.

As Whoaccio pointed out, overbuilding lines is just as wasteful as building massive bus stations because it costs a lot of money in borrowed capital and operations. This is something that is very difficult to justify considering the dire state of the city's finances. Unlike vaunted cities like Chicago, the province and feds aren't dropping bags of money on us to run empty trains.

The funny thing is that we're not overbuilding lines. People don't seem to understand the fact that this is what Toronto needs. Sheppard is not under capacity. Considering it's only 5 km long, it's actually got an astounding ridership, which is growing every day. Extending it to STC would easily put it's ridership into the 100 k, which will continue growing even more.

As for the province and feds not dropping bags of money on us, I'd like you to search up "Move Ontario 2020" on Google and tell us how much money they're not dropping on us for billions of dollars worth of transit projects. Metrolinx has also pledged to raise transit money on their own, which will probably come in the form of road tolls. Depending on how much they could charge, they should be able to get somewhere around $1 billion a year, if not more. Over the course of a subway project, that could be around $8 billion, which I think is enough for both a Sheppard extension and Eglinton subway all on it's own, not withholding provincial or federal funding.

 

[Rainforest]

^ The actual amount of money on the table is $12 B from the Province, plus $300 M that the Feds have given for the Sheppard line. That amount has distributed between GTA, Hamilton, Mississauga, Brampton etc, as well as GO improvements. From the GTA's share, $2.6 B are allocated for TYSSE and this amount is very unlikely to shift anywhere given the advanced state of the project.

So, the amount currently available for projects in GTA (other than TYSSE) is in the range of $8 - $8.5 B.

If Metrolinx introduces a meaningful funding strategy, the whole game will change - but that has not happened yet.

 

[DSC]

Actually, the Yonge Extension could easily get the TTC more money. YRT will be the operator funneling all the riders onto the Yonge line, so the TTC will be able to charge them a double fare while not having to provide the money-intensive feeder bus service. Since it won't have to provide the bus service, it's basically getting boatloads of "free" passengers, ready to pay the extra TTC fare for the subway.

Clearly you have not used the Yonge line much - if more riders are funneled onto it the capacity will have to be increased: more and/or longer trains, more room in stations and a major expansion of the Bloor/Yonge interchange. This will all cost the TTC LOTS of money.

I should stress that I'm in favour of extending the line but you need to look at all the costs involved. Extra passengers are NOT "free" passengers!

 

[nfitz]

If cancellation is really on the table, with this new massive provincial deficit, surely the only responsible thing to do by the provincial government would be simply to simply cancel all the projects, reduce provincial spending, and study projects that can be done when the provincial deficit is eliminated in 2015 or so.

There's little point the province spending $billion on transit when so many here have made it so clear that it's unnecessary.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Clearly you have not used the Yonge line much - if more riders are funneled onto it the capacity will have to be increased: more and/or longer trains, more room in stations and a major expansion of the Bloor/Yonge interchange. This will all cost the TTC LOTS of money.

I should stress that I'm in favour of extending the line but you need to look at all the costs involved. Extra passengers are NOT "free" passengers!

The TTC wouldn't pay for the B-Y improvements, nor would they pay for the DRL. Those would both be government capital projects like the Yonge extension. So every new rider on the Yonge line that'll come is essentially a free rider to the TTC. They don't have to pay to get them to the subway, as they do for the rest of the system.

 

[Fresh Start]

If cancellation is really on the table, with this new massive provincial deficit, surely the only responsible thing to do by the provincial government would be simply to simply cancel all the projects, reduce provincial spending, and study projects that can be done when the provincial deficit is eliminated in 2015 or so.

There's little point the province spending $billion on transit when so many here have made it so clear that it's unnecessary.

Yes, transit in the vain of Transit City is unnecessary. Does it not concern you at all that TC will drive even more customers to utilize the trunk subway lines, and not less? Time and again the stats prove that subways are the preferred mode within the 416; and for continuity of service quality through areas of the city untouched by rapid transit, it'd appear that that is the way to go. Finch West Subway Stn will do far more for the residents of Jane-and-Finch than either Jane LRT or Finch LRT could. Both lines characteristically are merely feeder routes to/from the subway. Bus lanes down those arterials could do the same job and carry upwards of 3400pphpd to 5000pphpd. BRT lanes through the sitting idle Hydro Corridor just a few blocks north of Finch would help more people and not be bogged down by traffic lights, congestion and too many insignificant stops en route.

TC is a nice concept in theory and ideology: carpet the 416 with mass transit. However the real world execution of such is another matter. Extending our existing subway lines and adding to them two more that are of immediate need: Eglinton for the sake that there isn't a crosstown trunk line through the centre of the 416 more capable of linking together all six city boroughs plus the airport; and the DRL for alleviating the innercity core. That is how I personally would allocate the funding and although the polling has been slow, it'd appear that the majority of the forum agrees with me.

The responsible thing for the government to do now is listen to the voice of its constituents who are only asking for something back from all the taxes they collect from us. Besides what about stimulus spending. If there is any a more convenient time to push for mass infrastructure project funding, it is now. And we don't even have to push hard, just tell the the gov't that our last mayor's vision was short-sighted and what we've come up with instead is a better way with which to alleviate congested arteries and reduce waittimes and transferring when attempting a one-way commute across the city. Inaction leads to nothing, the collective efforts of groups like SOS and Urbantoronto however might turns things around. At least I have the optimism to hope so.

 

[nfitz]

Besides what about stimulus spending. If there is any a more convenient time to push for mass infrastructure project funding, it is now.

Which is a great argument for continuing with all the construction that is being started and tendered now, and will start in 2010. Going back the design/EA phase would start construction after any stimulus is needed.

 

[Fresh Start]

Which is a great argument for continuing with all the construction that is being started and tendered now, and will start in 2010. Going back the design/EA phase would start construction after any stimulus is needed.

That's only one line though, and most of the contracted out work would had to have been done regardless of what mode ultimately goes along Sheppard East. TC ideology precedes the economic downturn. We need a new visionary proposal in the here and now to deal with here and now's challenges which will only worsen as public transit usage goes up because private car ownership will soon become a luxury beyond the reach of many middle-class Torontonians. That's why we don't screw up arterials like Eglinton and Sheppard with anything less than subways because when demand exceeds the capacity of road-median LRTs that'll be held up at lights; the politicians won't own up to their mistake and be reluctant to spend money in the future to build subways that should have gone along these corridors in the first place.

Like I said before, the money's already in place for the most part ($12-15B) and there are countless streams of funding that the City/Province aren't even considering that could assist in increasing market efficiency and reducing social costs. For every $20 the Province lacks in matching dollars it forgoes $80 in federal money. Why should things have to be this way? The most common forms of transit funding the municipalities/Gov’t of Ontario could explore include various types of loans, bonds, subsidies, and beneficiary charges. Other methods include public-private partnerships, internal cross subsidization, converting carpool lanes to toll lanes, existing tolls, gas taxes, development fees, provincial real estate transfer/deed recordation taxes (e.g. $3.30 per $1,000 of property conveyed), and parking taxes which can be levied as a percent surcharge on parking transactions or as a flat fee for hourly/daily/monthly rates. Fluctuations in the economy that might greatly reduce one particular revenue source, may leave other revenue sources relatively stable or even increased.

I would also recommend the Province/Ottawa hire an independent consultant group to conduct a formal audit of the transit agency (TTC), to determine whether the same or better public transit services could be provided at a lower cost. Chances are tens of millions of dollars could be saved from improvements to its service efficiency and route management. Paying drivers to park vehicles to go buy a Tim Horton’s or read the newspaper while their passengers are running late for work is just one of several easily identifiable problems that need correction. But the simplest way to yield all the benefits of Transit City (in terms of coverage area); but allow for true higher-order grade-separated transit to operate into priority destinations such Agincourt, the Scarborough Centre or PIA; is to just cancel the parts of TC that don't work and upgrade/downgrade mode types to balance out the expense.

 

[Darwinkgo]

If you believe in a lack of human ingenuity this might be true, but it is really pessimistic. You're assuming that we lack the ability to adapt and design alternatively fueled vehicles when given incentives. If oil spikes (which it will again of course) it will not sustain at that level because demand will start to drop because of high prices. Sure there was a reasonable amount of shift to transit at $150 oil, but it isn't like people stopped driving.

Plus if that many people stopped driving, we won't even need transit city LRT to provide high level service on roads due to a lack of competing traffic!

public transit usage goes up because private car ownership will soon become a luxury beyond the reach of many middle-class Torontonians

 

[Jay11]

Transit City project will be a big fail if they continue jacking up the city's debt.