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Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Lebanon?

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

How was Lebanon ever safe to return to? One half of the country is under the control of terrorists.

Its all relative. Perhaps the situation might seem desperate to you through the perspective and image you have of the region but too someone else who may have left only under the most dire extremes, maybe they saw a potential bright light and decided to go back and try build on the positives they saw. Just as some people see the Middle East as being the gravest threat to the humanity that has ever existed and must be dealt with by anihilating anyone who might be a terrorist or supports them, some see the United States in much the same light as having become nothing more than a renegade nation who rejects common conventions on human rights and freely slaughters whomever they feel like.

Just as, while you see Canada as a great country, some people may see it is as somewhat silly in its attempts to play junior empirialist and continue its colonial mindset. Some people call it an "energy superpower", others, an environmental disaster in the making. Some people fly into rampages when they cannot get credited for the 1 hour and 43 minutes their cable was out, others consider a good day one where they ate something other than rice or pasta. Persepctive can change everything.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

How was Lebanon ever safe to return to? One half of the country is under the control of terrorists.
This reminds of a news stores a few years ago, where a woman from Vietnam fled to Canada after the Communist victory as refugee, and then years later returned, only to be executed on IIRC narcotic charges. My thinking at the time was, you left Vietnam as a refugee due to the violence and threats of the Communist regime, and then, while the same regime is in power, you return. Why do these people return, when given haven in Canada?
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

^ Just be glad they don't all return and get executed or you'll have nothing to complain about.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

Just be glad they don't all return and get executed or you'll have nothing to complain about.
You're just being silly. Fleeing from a dangerous country, gaining safe haven and a new life in a welcoming new country, and then returning to the old country while the same dangerous circumstances currently or potentially still exist is just not smart.

You'll note that I have'nt said that Canada should not cover the cost of returning citizens from Lebanon, and only posed the questions as it's been mentioned in the media a few times. I'm not convinced either way, but for sure we should help our citizens out of harm's way, and settle the bill later.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

And if you have family and friends there? Are you just supposed to abandon them forever because you lucked out and got into Canada?
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

There does seem to be a question here, largely ignored in the mainstream media, about whether we have obligations to those who are technically Canadian citizens but who don't reside in and contribute to Canada. These "citizens of convenience" are not some right winger's bogeyman, but an increasing fact of modern transnational mobility.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

There is no question that there are people, probably many people, who use Canada as a convenience and who probably couldn't care one iota what happens here. That said, I'd rather that they are all saved and helped than should one single true and loyal Canadian not be. As a nation that needs and encourages immigration it is the price we must pay.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

It will come as no surprise, that I believe that if a country has to "rescue" it's citizens from a non-Canadian location, that those costs should be charged back to the individuals. If the charges would bankrupt, or the servicing fee of prime would push that individual below the poverty-line then the fee could be written down. I would prefer people rely on the insurance industry to cover costs in the future. If you travel, you should get insurance to cover the costs of emergency evacuation. The insurance industry should be able to calculate the risk associated with different destinations.

As far as Lebanon not being a war zone.... the country is occupied by terrorist organizations and up until recently -- Syria -- which is not "at peace" with Israel.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

Insurance may not cover warfare once it is under way. Also, I think the government is responsible once the Prime Minister gives his approval for the actions taking place.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

There does seem to be a question here, largely ignored in the mainstream media, about whether we have obligations to those who are technically Canadian citizens but who don't reside in and contribute to Canada.

The question of what Canadian citizenship grants you outside Canada's borders is one that should already have been answered. It shouldn't be that some event occurs and people make of the rules as they go on a case to case basis. Seeing that many other countries are evacuating their citizens as well and most of those are covering the cost it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that we would do the same. With all the aid money, peacekeeping expense, disaster response, etc that Canada does for the benefit of others outside our borders using our tax dollars it makes sense to me that there would be an effort to also help Canadians out there.

I fully support a dialogue over what Canadian citizenship should mean, what services are available from the government, whether or not absence should restrict rights to services, whether citizenship should expire, etc. This discussion should be about future events though, not a current event, and should think about all the reasons a Canadian might be out of the country. There are situations like helping an ailing family member in another country despite having lived in Canada and paying taxes for 40 years, working as part of an aid mission, working abroad but still paying Canadian taxes due to remaining significant ties to Canada, etc. If a Canadian pays taxes in Canada 10 years and then leaves before hitting old age and having OHIP pay for health problems that come with old age is rescuing them really such a burden? What about the CEO who pays more taxes in one year than another Canadian would pay in 10 who needs rescuing... does the fact he paid more taxes deserve extra consideration? Is the whole question one that should be a fiscal consideration or should it be more of a humanitarian one?

I really think there should be two questions... (a) are they Canadian, and (b) are they in urgent need of help. To some degree question (a) should be less of an issue if the rest of the world is pitching in.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

Enviro:

What bothers me is a nagging feeling that this whole debate about citizenship wouldn't have arisen if the matter happened in say Europe - it would be considered by default as an appropriate response since the Canadianess of those individuals would never have been put into question.

AoD
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

The Canadian government has no legal responsibility to anyone outside of Canada's borders. Embassies are legally part of Canada. The reason (politically) why Canada had to evacuate people from Lebanon is the number of people that hold Canadian citizenship -- that were in Lebanon. A citizen is a citizen period. There should be no talk of it expiring. I do believe that under certain terms that naturalized citizenship can be revoked (what is given, can be taken away). I would reserve that to any member that does not have allegence to Canada, as demonstrated by membership in a deemed terrorist organization.

Canada has the option of recovering the cost of evacuation (like other countries) for those that it provides emergency services outside of Canada (evacuation, emergency health-care, etc.). I would like it to be made very clear that it should be covered by insurance by requiring those that sell travel services (travel agencies) to ask you if you want insurance, and if you turn it down -- tell them that this means that any emergency services (including evacution) will not be covered -- and that the Canadian government charges those services back. Insurance companies have the infrastructure to determine the risk / cost factor for insurance -- this is no different. If you choose to visit Japan, then the risk is lower and the insurance is lower. If you choose to visit Iraq - the risk is higher and the cost is higher.
Travelling internationally is not a necessity, it is a luxury.

Those that are only legal residents and not citizens should not be covered. That is the responsibility of the country of citizenship. Canada is kind enough to allow you to become a citizen after only 3 years (I would prefer 5 years).

Basically, I would cover the cost this time, then have the travel/industry make things clear at the time of reservation. Most people do not read government websites etc.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

What about when the evacuation is through the military? Canadians already pay for that service through their taxes. They're also extremely expensive, with running cost for a frigate at over 1 million per day, with higher prices for sustained high-speed run. Spreading that among ~200 evacuees still works out at ~5K/day, and it could be more than a week.

Evacuation costs are normally covered in contingency budgets. There's just not much point in recovering them from indicidual Canadians.

Kevin
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

"What about when the evacuation is through the military? Canadians already pay for that service through their taxes. They're also extremely expensive, with running cost for a frigate at over 1 million per day, with higher prices for sustained high-speed run. Spreading that among ~200 evacuees still works out at ~5K/day, and it could be more than a week."

Frigates are not designed to ferry people. In fact, Canada currently has little or no ability in that area, when we deploy troops -- we are hitchhiking with the US and UK. Even if the equipment is paid for, special operations are not (as per the US having a non-budget expense of 200+ billion for the Iraq war). Evacuating people cost money.

"Evacuation costs are normally covered in contingency budgets."

Where did you see that in the budget?

"There's just not much point in recovering them from indicidual Canadians."

Sure there is, associate the cost recovery with the expense.... We don't pay for medical costs overseas, you get insurance for it, we don't offer free travel insurance, why should we offer free evacuation services. The insurance companies will assocate risk with the destination, and charge for it -- and when evacuation happens -- they cover it (with hopefully a small profit on the insurance company).

Government can pay for many things, but when people complain about not enough money for education, health-care -- why should we reserve money for non-essential items -- that can be best handled through travel insurance. It is different if it was in Canada, but it is not. Travel is a luxury.
 
Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

The Canadian law clearly outlines that if you have a dual-citizenship Canada is not responsible for you if something happens to you while you're inside the country of your second citizenship. If this law is anything to go by, I think in this particular case Lebanon and Hezbollah should be sent the bill for the costs of transporting their citizens to Canada (or at least to any place outside of Lebanon where Canada takes over the responsibility)

Meanwhile from today's issue of Maclean's...

August 01, 2006

50,000 problematic Canadians

The scandal isn't a tardy evacuation; it's that we've fostered so many indifferent citizens

MARK STEYN

Here's one of my favourite numbers: 50,000 -- as in "50,000 Canadians," as in "As many as 50,000 Canadians are believed to be in Lebanon" (CBC News), and "There were an estimated 50,000 Canadians in Lebanon when fighting broke out" (Canadian Press), and "There were some 50,000 Canadians in harm's way, trapped in a country that Israel was relentlessly bombing" (the Toronto Star).

The question is: Why are they "in harm's way"? How did "50,000 Canadians" come to be in Lebanon? Is it one of our major trading partners? Has Bombardier opened up a Ski-Doo plant there? Is Beirut where the Quebec Nordiques wound up? 50,000 Canucks out of a total Lebanese population of 3.8 million works out to about 1.3 per cent of the population. Hezbollah claims 400,000 supporters in Lebanon after 20 years of diligent recruiting and investment by Iran, but Canada has managed to amass an eighth of that figure with nary a thought. Despite significantly smaller populations than our G7 colleagues, we have more citizens in Lebanon than the Americans, British and Germans. Combined.

France is the former colonial power in Lebanon and the Western country with which it maintains the closest ties, yet even the French can muster only 30,000 citizens in the country. Formerly known as "the Paris of the Middle East," these days Beirut would appear to be the Saskatoon of the Middle East. Another decade or two and Lebanon will boast more Canadians than most of the Maritimes. If Canadians were represented within the global population as generously as they are among the Lebanese, there would be over 81 million Canadian citizens living outside Canada.

And yet none of the CBC reporters repeating the "50,000 Canadians" line every hour on the hour, day in, day out, apparently had sufficient curiosity to ponder what that bland statistic signified. The Calgary Herald gamely attempted an explanation: "Booming Country Drew Many Lebanese Back Home: Why So Many Canadians Are Trapped By Crisis." But that doesn't explain why it only drew them home from Canada, and not France, America, Australia or anywhere else. Broadway producers, accustomed to going to parties and hearing doctors, bond traders and orthodontists tell them what's wrong with their plays, like to say that show business is everybody's second business. Canada would seem to be everybody's second nationality. The question is whether it's still anybody's first.

Not long before 9/11, I picked up a book called Citizenship and National Identity by David Miller. He's a liberal nationalist and in the long-ago summer of 2001 it all seemed very theoretical. "The historic national community is a community of obligation," he writes. "Because our forebears have toiled and spilt their blood to build and defend the nation, we who are born into it inherit an obligation to continue their work, which we discharge partly towards our contemporaries and partly towards our descendants."

Well, so much for that. Mr. Miller is a British academic and, rereading his book five years on, I'm struck by how often he mentions Muslims. In doing so, he seems at least to imply that this particular identity group is not quite as others -- Welsh, Jews, Nigerians -- and yet every time he brings up the subject it's to reassure us that there's nothing to worry about. "Consider a Christian facing an Islamic group who declare that their goal is to make Britain into an Islamic state," he posits airily at one point, presenting it as a kind of abstract exercise in the limits of mutually respectful multiculturalism. "Valuing the identity espoused by the group facing you commits you to denying values you already hold: if you are a Christian, then you must believe that the Christian life is a valuable life, and therefore you cannot value the project of eradicating Christianity in the name of Islam."

I'd clean forgotten I'd read anything that specific about the Islamification of the West before Sept. 11th. But, as the author notes, the Muslim group Hizb ut-Tahrir were stating plainly and openly in the early nineties their goal of an Islamic Britain. Miller's book is frustrating, in that he managed to identify all the critical questions of the day without appreciating quite how pressing they are. But where he and others go awry is in misidentifying the internal contradictions of multiculturalism. In Multiculturalism and "The Politics Of Recognition," a very early entry into the field, Charles Taylor writes: "It makes sense to demand as a matter of right that we approach the study of certain cultures with a presumption of their value . . . But it can't make sense to demand as a matter of right that we come up with a final concluding judgment that their value is great, or equal to others . . . I have stated this rather flatly," he adds, somewhat superfluously. But, given that multiculturalism is principally an exercise in Western self-abasement, the presumption of greater value is the entire point. The problem, pace Taylor, is not that Group A holds values that are incompatible with Group B, but rather that Group A holds no values at all. In the modern multicultural state, we accord all values equal value: in effect, our values are that we have no values -- and so the best way we can demonstrate our lack of values is by deferring to those values most antipathetic to us. One thinks of Nada Farooq, Mississauga-raised wife of one of the alleged terrorists and moderator of an Internet forum for Muslim teens. In David Miller terms, her "citizenship" may be Canadian but her "identity" isn't: she planned to name her son Khattab, after the Chechen mujahedeen commander killed in 2002. Growing up in a Toronto suburb, she found recent Chechen history more inspiring than Canadian history, assuming she was taught any.

That's an extreme manifestation of the problem, of course. I'd wager those "50,000 Canadians" in Lebanon are more typical: the majority aren't Hezbollah terrorists, they're merely indifferent to Canada. It's a fallback position, something in the back pocket for when the powder keg goes up. A year or two or five ago, they stood before the Maple Leaf and pledged allegiance to Her Majesty The Queen and sang O Canada and listened to the citizenship judge blather about all the many races and nationalities in the room that were now joined within the bosom of the Canadian family. And it all meant . . . nothing. Which, in the long run, may be a bigger problem than Nada Farooq.

In The Power of Identity, Manuel Castells writes about what he calls "resistance identities" and the challenge they pose to traditional nation-states. I would prefer the term "resistant identities," in the sense that pan-Islamism is resistant to the usual assimilationist pull of Western societies. Yet hard-core jihad is always going to be a minority interest. And, as those "50,000 Canadians" suggests, indifference could be far more contagious. In the thirties, there were chaps who found themselves in tricky situations in Italy or Romania, Poland or France, and so for a small consideration acquired a passport from some potential Latin American bolthole. But Immigration Canada is the first to practise the racket on an industrial scale -- and to give it away.

The scandal is not that the government has been tardy in its evacuation plans for these "50,000 Canadians." The scandal is not even that so many Lebanese have gamed Canada's immigration system. The scandal is that there's no system to game and, with the exception of the Toronto Sun's Peter Worthington, no Canadian media bigwigs seem to mind. Indeed, the obvious fact that the bulk of these passports are flags of convenience only intensified the outrage at the sloth and incompetence of Ottawa in standing on guard for these paragons of Canada's post-nationalist national identity. The Toronto Star's lefty lovely, Linda McQuaig, morphed into a postmodern Lord Palmerston, all but demanding Harper dispatch HMCS Rustbucket to blast Tel Aviv. "The first duty of a Canadian prime minister is the safety of Canadians," she huffed. "So, faced with a choice of expressing support for Israel or doing everything he possibly could to protect tens of thousands of vulnerable Canadians, Harper should have opted for protecting the Canadians." To Miss McQuaig, the Zionist Entity's assault on Hezbollah was an unprovoked assault on an outlying Canadian province. And, if Paul Martin's Canada Steamship fleet ever gets impounded in Antwerp, no doubt she'll be demanding the Liberian Air Force bomb Belgium.


To comment, email letters@macleans.ca
 

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