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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

TheTigerMaster said:
1. Build the Sheppard East LRT
2. Extend the Relief Line to Don Mills and Sheppard

This is the best option out of all the proposals I've seen. And it can likely be built before any extensions of the Sheppard Subway get off the ground. Unlike Sheppard, the Don Mills corridor is "subway ready" (pending further study) and it would be a regional priority (relieving Yonge and bringing more subways to Richmond Hill).
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Right, but you don't think the DRL to Sheppard will increase the subways ridership?


I really think this is what some people wanted in the city,

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Let's assume the McCowan and Don Mills is built up to Sheppard as you have in the fantasy map above.

Whatever the technology, Sheppard will still be a feeder route into those two subways, as would Wilson, Lawrence and Eglinton. That's why I don't think it will get a huge amount of ridership, because I don't think Yonge & Sheppard or STC would be enough of a draw compared to downtown. People would mainly take an east-west route, Sheppard, Wilson, Lawrence or Eglinton to the nearest north-south subway and take it downtown. In addition, subways aren't usually the best technology for feeder routes because the stops are really far apart due to cost.

That's why I'm skeptical about a Sheppard East subway.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Right, but you don't think the DRL to Sheppard will increase the subways ridership?
Click to expand...
One Line 4? Not at the peak point (east of Yonge). Surely some people now living in the Kennedy/Sheppard area who'd take the Sheppard bus to Sheppard station, and then Line 4 and Line 1, would then take Line 4 to Line 2 at Scarborough Centre, reducing rides at the peak point east of Yonge.

I'd expect travel would be different, and perhaps wouldn't be much lower ... but I don't think the current peak (which is barely enough to justify LRT, let alone subway) would go up much. And I'd think the Kennedy to Victoria Park leg would have lower ridership than the last prediction showed (without the Line 2 extension).
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Right, but you don't think the DRL to Sheppard will increase the subways ridership?
Click to expand...

Absolutely not, if I understand the question.

A DRL to Sheppard would decrease peak-point ridership going east/west on Sheppard and make Sheppard subway even more of a white elephant.

How? The majority of riders are trying to go South and currently do so at Yonge. The large majority who currently ride from Don Mills to Yonge in the morning would instead opt to take the DRL south leaving mostly empty trains on Sheppard between Don Mills and Yonge.

East/West medium-distance demand (10km) in Toronto is quite low. Long-distance travel is better served by a high speed service like GO's 407 BRT.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
Maybe. But to subway levels? Absolutely not. The Relief Line won't increase ridership 3x.
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ehlow said:
Let's assume the McCowan and Don Mills is built up to Sheppard as you have in the fantasy map above.

Whatever the technology, Sheppard will still be a feeder route into those two subways, as would Wilson, Lawrence and Eglinton. That's why I don't think it will get a huge amount of ridership, because I don't think Yonge & Sheppard or STC would be enough of a draw compared to downtown. People would mainly take an east-west route, Sheppard, Wilson, Lawrence or Eglinton to the nearest north-south subway and take it downtown. In addition, subways aren't usually the best technology for feeder routes because the stops are really far apart due to cost.

That's why I'm skeptical about a Sheppard East subway.
Click to expand...

nfitz said:
One Line 4? Not at the peak point (east of Yonge). Surely some people now living in the Kennedy/Sheppard area who'd take the Sheppard bus to Sheppard station, and then Line 4 and Line 1, would then take Line 4 to Line 2 at Scarborough Centre, reducing rides at the peak point east of Yonge.

I'd expect travel would be different, and perhaps wouldn't be much lower ... but I don't think the current peak (which is barely enough to justify LRT, let alone subway) would go up much. And I'd think the Kennedy to Victoria Park leg would have lower ridership than the last prediction showed (without the Line 2 extension).
Click to expand...

I will find a bigger map
ttcV5.png


I can agree with that you guys. I think though, and this is we it can kind of make sense, is if you live between steeles and Sheppard in Scarborough. In theory you take the DRL from Union to Fairview Mall (Don Mills). You get on the sheppard east subway and take it to Birchmount, Warden, Kennedy, whatever. You walk, bus, or drive home from those stops. It beats Union -> Bloor Yonge -> Kennedy/Eglinton -> STC. Am I wrong. Is there enough people doing that?
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
I will find a bigger map

I can agree with that you guys. I think though, and this is we it can kind of make sense, is if you live between steeles and Sheppard in Scarborough. In theory you take the DRL from Union to Fairview Mall (Don Mills). You get on the sheppard east subway and take it to Birchmount, Warden, Kennedy, whatever. You walk, bus, or drive home from those stops. It beats Union -> Bloor Yonge -> Kennedy/Eglinton -> STC. Am I wrong. Is there enough people doing that?
Click to expand...

I could see that, until any of the subways are extended north to Finch or Steeles. Then they'd rather take an EW feeder to the nearest NS subway to go downtown again.

Or maybe EW bus routes north of Sheppard would turn south and go to the nearest NS subway station anyways.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
At least in the case of Finch West, the LRT was chosen over BRT because the operational costs of LRT were significantly lower.
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The Finch West, the Scarborough LRT, Waterfront West LRT, and the Eglinton LRT were the only ones where LRT was actually required from a capacity standpoint. Sheppard East, Jane, Scarborough-Malvern, and Don Mills (at least south of Eglinton) were all comfortably in the BRT range.
 
gweed123 said:
The Finch West, the Scarborough LRT, Waterfront West LRT, and the Eglinton LRT were the only ones where LRT was actually required from a capacity standpoint. Sheppard East, Jane, Scarborough-Malvern, and Don Mills (at least south of Eglinton) were all comfortably in the BRT range.
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I'd disagree with that. Don Mills south of Eglinton was pushing subway range, and well outside of BRT range!
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
I will find a bigger map
ttcV5.png


I can agree with that you guys. I think though, and this is we it can kind of make sense, is if you live between steeles and Sheppard in Scarborough. In theory you take the DRL from Union to Fairview Mall (Don Mills). You get on the sheppard east subway and take it to Birchmount, Warden, Kennedy, whatever. You walk, bus, or drive home from those stops. It beats Union -> Bloor Yonge -> Kennedy/Eglinton -> STC. Am I wrong. Is there enough people doing that?
Click to expand...

Your logic is correct and your map is quite good.

  1. I would expect that extending the (grey) Eglinton LRT (or SkyTrain) up to Malvern is less costly and less disruptive than sending the (green) B-D subway up there.
  2. The Neptis report did not provide any numbers, but I wonder if it is less expensive to convert the (purple) Sheppard subway to SkyTrain and extend it with smaller stations or elevated, compared to extension with subway.
  3. Does the Sheppard/hwy 400 area warrant higher order transit? Aren't there a few golf courses out there?
  4. Would the DRL be possible as SkyTrain instead of subway - longer stations than Sheppard though. It would require smaller tunnels and could handle curves better. I might move the alignment north a bit - but close enough.
 
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