Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[drum118]

First key point. Can this Sheppard line elevation from the existing platform fast enough to cross 404 elevated and just south of Sheppard (where there are no off-ramps. That's how you can save serious $$$. Then continue along Sheppard elevated.
2nd key point. If anyone complains about elevated, the alternative is not TBM, it is a different route that doesn't even give them a station. In this case, 401 (maybe Progress).

It was determine that it is impossible to go from the existing Don Mill Station to be elevated over the 404 due the short distance and exceeding max slopping grade.

Because of the grade to get under the 404, you could only get to Consumers Rd before you could get to the surface for an LRT line or a subway station. MTO has a lot to do with this.

If you want the subway to be elevated along Sheppard, the elevation from a surface station on the east side of Consumers would have to climb to get over Victoria Park.

Being elevated will see more NIMBY folks opposing this idea than the LRT.

End of the day, there is not nor will be enough riders along Sheppard to support a subway in the first place even connecting to Line 2.

Sheppard is better off with an BRT, but I prefer to see an LRT that can branch off to other areas over time.

I prefer to see the Sheppard subway extended to Victoria Park as original plan that ran out of money thanks to good old Mike and the LRT taking over from there.

If you are going to have station space far apart, you will have to run bus service to dealt with riders between those stations.

 

[afransen]

The idea is that it deals with the grade issue while still maximizing use of the highway corridor. As in it gets to an elevated guideway within the highway ROW in as short a distance as possible. The alternative would, I suppose, be a portal within the Sheppard Ave ROW and following roughly Ann O'Reilly Rd to get the 401, but the TTC seems pretty committed to not putting elevated guideway in road allowances, though I wonder if the Ontario line in Thorncliffe and Flemingdon might start to change that.

I would imagine most of the expense would be in launching a TBM, saving a few hundred meters would not be worth a worse route. TTC is going to have to get over wanting to avoid elevated guideways in road ROWs if we're going to make any progress building transit where it is needed and useful and not just where there happens to be convenient ROWs.

 

[north-of-anything]

A forced linear transfer at Victoria Park? I'm sure Scarborough will love that.

The Ontario Line should hopefully wake people up to the idea that elevated structures along roadways are not a bad thing. If they can't accept that then the alternative is either expropriation or the status quo, because there is no way tunnelling to McCowan will get off the drawing board. At least with Eglinton West there's an easy connection to the airport and the Mississauga Transitway.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A forced linear transfer at Victoria Park? I'm sure Scarborough will love that.

The Ontario Line should hopefully wake people up to the idea that elevated structures along roadways are not a bad thing. If they can't accept that then the alternative is either expropriation or the status quo, because there is no way tunnelling to McCowan will get off the drawing board. At least with Eglinton West there's an easy connection to the airport and the Mississauga Transitway.

The NIMBYs along Overlea Blvd. were not keen on having any rapid transit (IE. Relief Line), so they got their wish by having the Ontario Line be shifted over to the hydro corridor WITHOUT a station to serve them.

 

[syn]

The Ontario Line won't be a wakeup call to anyone if it isn't going through their neighbourhood.

 

[H4F33Z]

The NIMBYs along Overlea Blvd. were not keen on having any rapid transit (IE. Relief Line), so they got their wish by having the Ontario Line be shifted over to the hydro corridor WITHOUT a station to serve them.

That's a complete lie. Complete lie. You know how happy we were when we heard that the new line is coming to Thorncliffe. We've been starving for better transit access. The 25 is one of the busiest bus routes in the city! The general concern was not about having the line itself. It was misunderstandings about how the line would function. It was planned to be elevated, and elevating the line confused many residents. They didn't know how you could elevate a line in such a dense area. And worried it wouldn't be as fast as a subway.

And the part about avoiding Overlea and using the hydro corridor, that's not because of the residents. That was on Metrolinx. They needed a way to better access the potential EMSF site on Beth Nealson. And they didn't want to cause impact to local schools, places of worship and other important buildings. There's still a station in Thorncliffe Park, near the west end.

I'm pretty upset that you think that we don't want rapid transit. I'm also upset that you didn't even do a little research and just assumed

 

[99Messier]

It was determine that it is impossible to go from the existing Don Mill Station to be elevated over the 404 due the short distance and exceeding max slopping grade.

Because of the grade to get under the 404, you could only get to Consumers Rd before you could get to the surface for an LRT line or a subway station. MTO has a lot to do with this.

I am not convinced of this. I don't have complete confidence in Michael Schabas, but he did outline a proposal that said it could be done - the Scarborough Wye. I think we can say for certain:

• For TTC subway car specs, it is not possible to elevate the track before highway 404.
• For LRT, it is not possible to run the tracks on the bridge - which would mean that you have to make it to street level even before Fairview Mall Drive (100m west of the bridge.

I would like to see more proof before concluding whether it's possible for elevation over highway 404 with Ontario Line type cars that can climb steeper grades, and shifting to the south side of Sheppard to allow the full distance to the highway to be used for climbing.

 

[drum118]

I am not convinced of this. I don't have complete confidence in Michael Schabas, but he did outline a proposal that said it could be done - the Scarborough Wye. I think we can say for certain:

• For TTC subway car specs, it is not possible to elevate the track before highway 404.
• For LRT, it is not possible to run the tracks on the bridge - which would mean that you have to make it to street level even before Fairview Mall Drive (100m west of the bridge.

I would like to see more proof before concluding whether it's possible for elevation over highway 404 with Ontario Line type cars that can climb steeper grades, and shifting to the south side of Sheppard to allow the full distance to the highway to be used for climbing.

How deep do you think the current Don Mills station is and where does it end??? Once you know that, do the calculation to get to the height that is needed to go along Sheppard. You will see you are out are out of luck for your idea as well Michael Schabas.

There was a chap that belong to a short live group that I was part of who was an engineer who produce drawings for TTC meetings that doing any type of wye and tunneling to the surface would require more distance than what TTC was proposing for the Sheppard LRT and the Don Mills LRT.

If you want more proof, you will not get it here, but do know someone from Vancouver who will tell you its impossible to do what you want since he has dealt with the system plan for the Ontario Line. The Ontario line will cease to exist once end of life happen and be replace by something else that will be more effected and carry more riders than the what plan at big $$.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

A forced linear transfer at Victoria Park? I'm sure Scarborough will love that.

The Ontario Line should hopefully wake people up to the idea that elevated structures along roadways are not a bad thing. If they can't accept that then the alternative is either expropriation or the status quo, because there is no way tunnelling to McCowan will get off the drawing board. At least with Eglinton West there's an easy connection to the airport and the Mississauga Transitway.

But going to McCowan is the plan for now. That's what we signed up for with Ford.

 

[asher__jo]

But going to McCowan is the plan for now. That's what we signed up for with Ford.

The plan is for line 2 to meet Sheppard, yes.

 

[Cobra]

The plan is for line 2 to meet Sheppard, yes.

An opportunity to copy Montreal's Lionel Groulx or Snowdon Stations - best interchange stations

 

[aquateam]

An opportunity to copy Montreal's Lionel Groulx or Snowdon Stations - best interchange stations

I was never a fan of either interchange tbh. At Lionel-Groulx, there were too many occasions where I would be making an across-the-platform transfer to a train, just to have the driver slam the doors shut before transferring passengers could make it in.

As an able-bodied person, the long wait between trains was much more inconvenient than a single flight of stairs. And given how deep most of the Montreal metro stations are, it's not like much effort was saved.

I would have a destination on de Maisonneuve blvd downtown, the green line travels west along de Maisonneuve, but before it gets to my apartment on de Maisonneuve in the west the green line curves south and backwards (partially in order to do the threading on Lionel-Groulx) and as a result I would need to wait 10 minutes to transfer in the same direction the line was already heading.

As for the Snowdon exchange, as someone heading to UdM from the Cote-Vertu direction (or Snowdon to Montmorency for the reverse trip), I would always need to change levels. But the benefit (and slightly off-putting part) is that I would always need to go down a flight of stairs, never up.

But I agree with you, across-the-platform transfers is the standard we should aim for. Most of the transfers designed recently (I'm thinking Cedarvale on Line 5, Osgoode/Queen in the RLS study, etc.) involve multiple levels of concourses and passageways.

 

[begratto]

I would have a destination on de Maisonneuve blvd downtown, the green line travels west along de Maisonneuve, but before it gets to my apartment on de Maisonneuve in the west the green line curves south and backwards (partially in order to do the threading on Lionel-Groulx) and as a result I would need to wait 10 minutes to transfer in the same direction the line was already heading.

The average waiting time is now 2 1/2 to 3 minutes - headway is 5 - 6 minutes outside of rush hours until 10:30pm - on both the green and orange lines.

 

[aquateam]

The average waiting time is now 2 1/2 to 3 minutes - headway is 5 - 6 minutes outside of rush hours until 10:30pm - on both the green and orange lines.

Their headway has improved but it still reaches 10-12 minutes according to the STM website.

Rush hour is good, but when I'd be going home late from work/school it would be infrequent. More than a few times I've entered the metro only to immediately leave because the next departure screen showed a long wait for the next train. It would be faster to take the Sherbrooke bus and walk than to have to potentially add 2x12 minutes of waiting time for the metro.

 

[begratto]

Their headway has improved but it still reaches 10-12 minutes according to the STM website.

The Transit app shows the real headways, which are better than what the STM shows on these tables. They have improved the headways significantly in the past few years (well, since Projet Montréal is in power at city hall).

On weekdays, it's 5 minutes or better until 10:30 pm. Even at midnight it's still 8 minutes.
On Saturdays and Sundays, the headway is 6 minutes or better until 8pm, then every 8 minutes until 10:30, every 9 minutes until ~midnight and then every 10 minutes until closing time.

The only