Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

To be entirely fair, no one wants to lose their house, or even apartment, for the greater good of society. Just like when a bunch of people in the Annex got the Spadina expressway cancelled because they didn't want their homes demolished or their landscape changed, people in Scarborough don't want to lose their home to a construction site.

We see the same NIMBY perspectives everywhere in Toronto, not just in Scarborough or North York. People in Leslieville don't want an above-ground Ontario line, if you built a streetcar line or a new high-rise in any one of the streetcar suburbs, people would riot. If you suddenly had to evict an entire high-rise in downtown, people would sue.

But they're going to. Sheppard East will need a massive rezoning job along with this subway. The rents will rize. This will push people out to Whitby, Oshawa and even Barrie, Peterborough, Belleville.

 

[Hopkins123]

To be fair: Karygiannis bitched about that tax increase, but then voted with Tory to support the tax increase.

The motion passed 21-3, only Ford, Holyday, and Perruzza voting No. The rest of councillors present, including Karygiannis, voted Yes.

Karygiannis is still a city councillor? I thought he was removed.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I have to disagree here. Scarborough's density is similar to that of Etobicoke and much of North York (excluding the Yonge corridor in the latter), and probably Scarborough pays about same amount of taxes per capita as Etobicoke and North York.

The majority of the low-density parts of Etobicoke and North York have to take the bus to the subway. This whole "transit equity" argument falls apart quickly. Scarborough isn't being hard-done by anyone but the politicians lying to the people about the subway.

In terms of transit endowement, Scarborough is definitely worse off compared to the other two. Similar frequency of the major bus routes, but substantially longer trips to the subway.

Scarborough is a much larger suburb, and Toronto as a whole has an underdeveloped network. If we as a region got our act together and built the relief line up to Sheppard and Don Mills, much of Scarborough would have a much shorter bus ride to the subway.

I concede that Scarborough Town Centre is an important node and the question of how to connect it to the greater network remains an important question. I personally think Eglinton should have been branched at Kennedy and tunneled through the Golden Mile, but that has not been on the table for a long time. (Or is it, if Doug keeps delaying the Scarborough projects? ?)

 

[Streety McCarface]

The majority of the low-density parts of Etobicoke and North York have to take the bus to the subway. This whole "transit equity" argument falls apart quickly. Scarborough isn't being hard-done by anyone but the politicians lying to the people about the subway.

People aren't complaining about having to take a bus to the subway, they're complaining about the lack of access to the subway in their areas. Just count the number of stations (SRT doesn't count) and you'll see the difference.

North York has 20 stations and has a population of 672K
York has 4 stations (+6 from the Crosstown & Eglinton West) and a population of 145K
East York has 3 stations (+3 from the crosstown) an has a population of 118K
Etobicoke has 4 stations (+ 6 potential grade-separated stations from the Eglinton West LRT, + Humber College)) and has a population of 365K
Scarborough has 3 stations (+3 potential stops from the SSE) and has a population of 632K

It's quite easy to see the discrepancy.

Scarborough is a much larger suburb, and Toronto as a whole has an underdeveloped network. If we as a region got our act together and built the relief line up to Sheppard and Don Mills, much of Scarborough would have a much shorter bus ride to the subway.

No, it won't, it will decrease subway commute times for the majority of riders, and will make trips far more reliable. It'll definitely decrease the ride for the few people that don't take Line 4, Line 2, or won't use the crosstown to ride west to Yonge (maybe 20K people), but it certainly won't benefit the majority of Scarborough bus riders, who generally live east of McCowan, or within 2 km west of a proposed SSE.

The DRL largely serves to reduce North York/East York/York Region bus commuters overcrowding on the Yonge line, East Old Toronto bus commuters using the Bloor Danforth Line, and Scarborough subway riders on Line 2. It's nowhere close enough to Scarborough to benefit a significant portion of bus users.

I concede that Scarborough Town Centre is an important node and the question of how to connect it to the greater network remains an important question. I personally think Eglinton should have been branched at Kennedy and tunneled through the Golden Mile, but that has not been on the table for a long time. (Or is it, if Doug keeps delaying the Scarborough projects? ?)

Personally, if we want to do something with Eglinton, I think that once the Relief Line North is built, we should cut Line 5 short to Science Centre, (assume the western extension is built as a grade-separated line), and run that line like a subway line (High frequencies and whatnot without turnarounds). For the eastern section, rebrand the surface section as a new line and include the Eglinton East extension to UTSC. The line is too long and has two very different operational patterns. The majority of people using the eastern section want to get around Scarborough, East York, or get downtown, so there's really no need to interline it with the western crosstown at Science Centre Station.

 

[Allandale25]

'but the really issue is you don't like the technology.'

Seriously?

Didnt expect this from you, but its the kinda narrow crap a handful here on UT have tried to corner those who supported a central subway connection with. To be crystal clear I have absolutely zero issue with the LRT technology itself, and also support the EELRT as it currently stands if you have read my posts. My issue was always the legacy design of the current RT and the piss poor integration/design of both the SELRT and old SMLRT (which will be improved as the EELRT) and I am also just as thrilled if we can add BRT as a priority over LRT as feeders to stretch more north-south, and east-west route where capacity is not an issue.

I firmly believe the Transit City plan was far too simplistic, ideological as it lacked very important details necessary to responsibly evolve such a diverse area into a broader network. It should have never happened and if you read back in UT pre-Trasnit City most would have never expected this outcome. Even for those who preferred to completely cheap out on Scarborough, LRT wasn't the right option and it certainly wasn't the right option for those wanting to see better central connectivity. I get the Ford subways calls were reciprocal to this plan but they are the more important backbones of the network here and for some the LRT technology itself has also become all that mattered. Just like you state above anyone who questions the plans automatically 'dislikes the technology' or as others irrational label 'Ford lover'... Ive seen some pretty deranged automatic labels spit-out from a small handful of ultra pro LRT tech lovers on UT over the years.

As far as outside Councillors go my gripe is with those who completely refused to listen or work with 99% of Scarborough Councillors, MPP's and recent Mayors, they chose to double down on corner cutting simplicity for over a decade. We actually even had one Councillor still campaigning a downtown riding last election on stopping subways in Scarborough. That is very extreme entitlement and only heightens a City divide while having no tangible impact or relevance. And if anything it just helps the Ford type vote gain strength, which seems quite counter productive to the cause. While Tory has very little power within the City and nothing with the Province, his leadership of being respectful to all areas of this mega City and building bridges is exactly what we should expect from all City Councillors of any stripe or geographic location to help move the City forward in the future

No. Not seriously because I meant to add a question mark at the end and forgot. Maybe that wouldn't have changed your impression but I was just trying to ask a question (and legitimate ground for discussion). I also made a grammatical error. So you're absolutely correct not to have expected that from me. That wasn't my intention and it's in my view an occasional downside of UT as opposed to an in-person discussion over coffee.

So I don't try to be narrow and wouldn't want the impression that was the goal of that post.

Appreciate everything after "crystal clear" and will review.

 

[Streety McCarface]

But they're going to. Sheppard East will need a massive rezoning job along with this subway. The rents will rize. This will push people out to Whitby, Oshawa and even Barrie, Peterborough, Belleville.

They definitely will (I've been saying they need to rezone Sheppard for years), I'm just saying it's easy to understand their concerns. To frame it as a Scarborough problem is hypocritical since everyone in Toronto does it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

They definitely will (I've been saying they need to rezone Sheppard for years), I'm just saying it's easy to understand their concerns. To frame it as a Scarborough problem is hypocritical since everyone in Toronto does it.

I think the issue is these people are going to be more vocal about it, when that is the reality if heavy rail. This will become a new condo corridor and throw prices in Toronto even more out of wack.

 

[Rainforest]

Karygiannis is still a city councillor? I thought he was removed.

He was suspened briefly, on some campaign financing technicality. Then reinstated, on another technicality.

 

[Rainforest]

The majority of the low-density parts of Etobicoke and North York have to take the bus to the subway. This whole "transit equity" argument falls apart quickly.

It doesn't fall apart. While many residents of Etobicoke, North York, and Scarborough alike have to take a bus top subway, the typical bus ride to subway in Etobicoke or North York is shorter than the typical bus ride to subway in Scrborough. The overall travel time is one of the criteria of transit service quality.

Scarborough is a much larger suburb, and Toronto as a whole has an underdeveloped network. If we as a region got our act together and built the relief line up to Sheppard and Don Mills, much of Scarborough would have a much shorter bus ride to the subway.

While the idea of RL North certainly has merit, it doesn't have more merit than SSE. Comparing apples to apples, i.e. the 7-km long SSE running between Eglinton and Sheppard to the 6-km long RL North running between Eglinton and Sheppard:

1) The catchment areas will be distinct, but similar in size and density. SSE is obviously better for the central and eastern Scarborough, while RL North is obviously better for the western Scarborough and eastern North York.

2) SSE will be based on the already existing Line 2, while RL North would be based on RL Phase 1 (to Science Centre), which doesn't exist yet, and will be open in 2027 at the earliest.

3) Even if the RL to Science Centre existed today, its extension north of Eglinton would have ridership in the 10-12 pphpd range, roughly similar to SSE.

Thus, RL North doesn't beat SSE on (1) or (3), and trails on (2). No good reason to abandon SSE just because of the chance that RL North will be built one day.

I concede that Scarborough Town Centre is an important node and the question of how to connect it to the greater network remains an important question. I personally think Eglinton should have been branched at Kennedy and tunneled through the Golden Mile, but that has not been on the table for a long time. (Or is it, if Doug keeps delaying the Scarborough projects? ?)

Not a bad idea, but I think it's too late for that, even with any possible subways delay. Eglinton LRT is being built in street median through the Golden Mine, and changing that would be too tedious at this point.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It doesn't fall apart. While many residents of Etobicoke, North York, and Scarborough alike have to take a bus top subway, the typical bus ride to subway in Etobicoke or North York is shorter than the typical bus ride to subway in Scrborough. The overall travel time is one of the criteria of transit service quality.



While the idea of RL North certainly has merit, it doesn't have more merit than SSE. Comparing apples to apples, i.e. the 7-km long SSE running between Eglinton and Sheppard to the 6-km long RL North running between Eglinton and Sheppard:

1) The catchment areas will be distinct, but similar in size and density. SSE is obviously better for the central and eastern Scarborough, while RL North is obviously better for the western Scarborough and eastern North York.

2) SSE will be based on the already existing Line 2, while RL North would be based on RL Phase 1 (to Science Centre), which doesn't exist yet, and will be open in 2027 at the earliest.

3) Even if the RL to Science Centre existed today, its extension north of Eglinton would have ridership in the 10-12 pphpd range, roughly similar to SSE.

Thus, RL North doesn't beat SSE on (1) or (3), and trails on (2). No good reason to abandon SSE just because of the chance that RL North will be built one day.



Not a bad idea, but I think it's too late for that, even with any possible subways delay. Eglinton LRT is being built in street median through the Golden Mine, and changing that would be too tedious at this point.

Fair points, but my issue is that SSE forces us to build Sheppard sooner rather then later because of the gap in the system on Sheppard. Once we decided build SSE, sheppard came back on the table. There was no way to build one without the other. I would prefer the line be done in full from Sheppard West to STC. Even with SSE, people on Sheppard, Finch, Steeles and Ellesmere will still travel west to Don Mills and Yonge.

 

[Rainforest]

Fair points, but my issue is that SSE forces us to build Sheppard sooner rather then later because of the gap in the system on Sheppard. Once we decided build SSE, sheppard came back on the table. There was no way to build one without the other. I would prefer the line be done in full from Sheppard West to STC.

IMO, there is no strong connection between SSE and the Sheppard extension. SSE is compatible with other options on Sheppard as much as it is compatible with subway.

If they decide to build low-floor Sheppard East LRT, it will work better with SSE ending at Sheppard, because many riders from both east and west of McCowan will take a short LRT dire and transfer to the subway.

Should Sheppard get an OL style mini metro, or a high-floor LRT, both those options can work with the SSE Sheppard terminus as well.

Even with SSE, people on Sheppard, Finch, Steeles and Ellesmere will still travel west to Don Mills and Yonge.

Sheppard and Ellesmere will be intercepted, and not just from the east. Riders boarding between McCowan and Kennedy might find it faster to backtrack to McCowan (or STC in case of Ellesmere) and take the subway from there.

Finch is less obvious, but depends on the route design. If it gets Finch Crosstown LRT, then the eastern end can go south down McCowan and connect to the subway terminus at Sheppard. Again, quite a few riders will commute east and south in AM, north and west in PM, to take advantage of the faster subway ride.

Steeles, maybe not; but that's just one bus route.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

IMO, there is no strong connection between SSE and the Sheppard extension. SSE is compatible with other options on Sheppard as much as it is compatible with subway.

If they decide to build low-floor Sheppard East LRT, it will work better with SSE ending at Sheppard, because many riders from both east and west of McCowan will take a short LRT dire and transfer to the subway.

Should Sheppard get an OL style mini metro, or a high-floor LRT, both those options can work with the SSE Sheppard terminus as well.



Sheppard and Ellesmere will be intercepted, and not just from the east. Riders boarding between McCowan and Kennedy might find it faster to backtrack to McCowan (or STC in case of Ellesmere) and take the subway from there.

Finch is less obvious, but depends on the route design. If it gets Finch Crosstown LRT, then the eastern end can go south down McCowan and connect to the subway terminus at Sheppard. Again, quite a few riders will commute east and south in AM, north and west in PM, to take advantage of the faster subway ride.

Steeles, maybe not; but that's just one bus route.

But people are going to demand a subway. That's the issue to me. The genie is out of the bottle. I don't think LRT will sell on Sheppard at this point. In fairness, at least we don't have to go to STC. But we have to spend money on a terminal at Sheppard/McCowan.

 

[Rainforest]

But people are going to demand a subway. That's the issue to me. The genie is out of the bottom. I don't think LRT will sell on Sheppard at this point. In fairness, at least we don't have to go to STC. But we have to spend money on a terminal at Sheppard/McCowan.

Let's wait a few years, and see. So far, Sheppard extension is not in Doug's plan and has no committed funding. And even those items that are in the plan and got some sort of funding commitments, aren't 100% secure until the construction starts.

 

[OneCity]

But people are going to demand a subway. That's the issue to me. The genie is out of the bottom. I don't think LRT will sell on Sheppard at this point. In fairness, at least we don't have to go to STC. But we have to spend money on a terminal at Sheppard/McCowan.

I think alot depends on whether the Sheppard extension connects as a spur off the OL or the Sheppard subway stub.

Most residents simply want better connectivity to the main infrastructure that exists, up until now that only option here was a heavy rail subway that was originally intended to connect to Scarborough Centre. The Transit City SELRT connecting to the stubway was really not a comparable LRT design to an OL spur in attractiveness, and commuter benefit.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think alot depends on whether the Sheppard extension connects as a spur off the OL or the Sheppard subway stub.

Most residents simply want better connectivity to the main infrastructure that exists, up until now that only option here was a heavy rail subway that was originally intended to connect to Scarborough Centre. The Transit City SELRT connecting to the stubway was really not a comparable LRT design to an OL spur in attractiveness, and commuter benefit.

Remember the line covers most of North York too. I think it will be full subway just because of that.