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Sharon Yetman's Subway Safety Plan (Better barrier for subways 'an obsession')

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In response to Asterix and Greg,

If you live at Davisville, Yes you are right you would go in the opposite direction to go to work.

One stop to Eglinton and then straight "express" to work Yonge & Bloor.

Every train will do the same. That's why you don't need a second line.

That's why there is no bunching.

But you once again, must have platform safety.

Efficiency is not possible without safety.

Davisville is an example of a possitively affected station going in the "oppositive direction' to go to work.

Davisville has only two stops now to get to work.

From Eglinton, now you are only on the subway in a 'HALF CROWDED TRAIN".

From Eglinton it will only take about 5 minutes or 6 minutes to arrive at Yonge and Bloor.

Remember now, there would be likely no track fires.

There would be likely no subway deaths, unless they brought a sledge hammer.

There would be like little or no PAA alarms, since nobody is likely on the train from "anywhere" for more than about 25 minutes.

I would only suggest to allow the stop and creep method for Yonge and bloor, as they did on ALL SUBWAY STATION FOR 8O SOME YEARS, until they had the tragic Russel Hill Accident.

Now it would be just one station allowing for stop and creep.

This would allow the full 203% Capacity Improvement, otherwise it may be reduced to about a 100% Capacity Improvement, the lower percentage I haven't worked out yet. Still a far cry from 26% for ATC . I am not discouraging ATC, I am just using it as a comparison, cost wise and advantage wise.

Sharon.
 
subway safety said:
In response to Asterix and Greg,

If you live at Davisville, Yes you are right you would go in the opposite direction to go to work.

One stop to Eglinton and then straight "express" to work Yonge & Bloor.

Every train will do the same. That's why you don't need a second line.

That's why there is no bunching.

...

Davisville has only two stops now to get to work.

From Eglinton, now you are only on the subway in a 'HALF CROWDED TRAIN".

From Eglinton it will only take about 5 minutes or 6 minutes to arrive at Yonge and Bloor.
Click to expand...

So it appears GregWTravel's interpretation was correct.

I don't think you understood my second question:

For some passenger travelling from Davisville to College or Dundas, how long do you think it would take them with the current system and how long would it take with your proposed system?

Please breakdown by stages, for example 5 - 6 minutes from Eglinton to Bloor, remembering this passenger has to first go north to Eglinton and south from Bloor to College or Dundas.
 
The TTC will never implement this. And I hope they don't. It's a transfer nightmare for all but the people who travel from express stop to express stop. If anybody thinks the public enjoys transferring they are sorely mistaken. Just have a chat with any Scarborough resident who has to use the SRT and transfer at Kennedy. I would bet that most of the public would rather have slightly longer travel times and maybe even more crowding than have such a convoluted system with so many transfers, where they have to watch where each and every train is going and they might have to transfer twice to go two or three stops.

Keep in mind that our system today is not all that slow. The slowest part of using the TTC is the bus ride to the station. The problem with travel times is that our heavy rail network is not big enough. And this is where most of the complaints lie. I have yet to hear somebody tell me that it takes way too long to get from Finch station to Union or that their ride from Kennedy to Yonge is too slow. The Yonge line is nearly as fast as the GO Train for pete's sake. What more could you want? Is it really that worthwhile to ditch the absolute simplicity of our system just to have a ride that's a few minutes shorter and with an increase chance of a seat.

This whole thing is getting more and more strange. We've gone from discussing the installation of subway barriers and platform passenger flow controls to suggesting a wholescale re-ordering of Toronto's subway network. I feel sorry for the professionals who had to sit through this presentation just to appease Sharon. It'd be one thing to push for something like this, if Toronto had Tokyo style congestion and crowding problems. But to save a few minutes on a subway ride in Toronto? Ridiculous. I'd much rather that money go towards building bus lanes all over the city and cutting back on the ridiculously long bus rides most of us take to get to a station in the first place. How about first focusing on cutting down the 30 minute bus ride from Morningside and Finch to access the SRT, before focusing on cutting a few minutes off a subway ride?
 
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Are you saying that there would be 0 (i.e. ZERO) southbound service from Davisville station? Not even a local B train?

I think that's political suicide to effectively shutter a station. Someone here proposed closing down Rosedale station and there was an uproar over it.
 
subway safety said:
I would only suggest to allow the stop and creep method for Yonge and bloor, as they did on ALL SUBWAY STATION FOR 8O SOME YEARS, until they had the tragic Russel Hill Accident.
Click to expand...

That's odd, last I checked Toronto didn't have a subway back in 1920.

subway safety said:
They too had the precise full map in front of them with all the approapriate stops shown on the map, which direction, when they stop.
Click to expand...

If you could post this map, I think this will help greatly in understanding how this system should work instead of using monotonously long and drawn out explanations.

Woodbridge_Heights said:
Are you saying that there would be 0 (i.e. ZERO) southbound service from Davisville station? Not even a local B train?
Click to expand...

The way I understand it, would be if you want to pop down to St. Clair, you'd have to go down all the way to Y&B then make the journey north again. Again, posting the map you showed the big wigs would help greatly!!
 
Yeah, I'm getting more confused with every post. And I don't think it's because 'my mind is blown', it's because of a communication failure.

I thought at first you were describing A and B trains on the same line, with stations set like A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B.


Now I'm reading one/both of the following:

1. Tiered stations; A, B, and C. A gets all trains, B gets 1/2 trains, and C gets 1/4 trains.

2. Express and one-way; E and O. Trains stop only at E, travelers at O must backtrack to E.


Which of these is correct?
(hopefully neither, because they're both seriously flawed)
 
I'm with the above; it's very hard to follow these proposals, particularly when I'm squeezing visits to the site in amongst "real work". Perhaps if I were to take an hour or two in the evening to digest it, it would be easier to follow - but in any event, a diagram would work wonders here.

I'm very dubious that much can be accomplished in this vein without significant additional tunneling and trackwork. Given the known problems of track capacity, I'm afraid that "extraordinary claims require extraodinary proof", and I don't think we have been given that level of proof.
 
kEiThZ said:
The TTC will never implement this. And I hope they don't. It's a transfer nightmare for all but the people who travel from express stop to express stop. If anybody thinks the public enjoys transferring they are sorely mistaken. Just have a chat with any Scarborough resident who has to use the SRT and transfer at Kennedy. I would bet that most of the public would rather have slightly longer travel times and maybe even more crowding than have such a convoluted system with so many transfers, where they have to watch where each and every train is going and they might have to transfer twice to go two or three stops.

Keep in mind that our system today is not all that slow. The slowest part of using the TTC is the bus ride to the station. The problem with travel times is that our heavy rail network is not big enough. And this is where most of the complaints lie. I have yet to hear somebody tell me that it takes way too long to get from Finch station to Union or that their ride from Kennedy to Yonge is too slow. The Yonge line is nearly as fast as the GO Train for pete's sake. What more could you want? Is it really that worthwhile to ditch the absolute simplicity of our system just to have a ride that's a few minutes shorter and with an increase chance of a seat.

This whole thing is getting more and more strange. We've gone from discussing the installation of subway barriers and platform passenger flow controls to suggesting a wholescale re-ordering of Toronto's subway network. I feel sorry for the professionals who had to sit through this presentation just to appease Sharon. It'd be one thing to push for something like this, if Toronto had Tokyo style congestion and crowding problems. But to save a few minutes on a subway ride in Toronto? Ridiculous. I'd much rather that money go towards building bus lanes all over the city and cutting back on the ridiculously long bus rides most of us take to get to a station in the first place. How about first focusing on cutting down the 30 minute bus ride from Morningside and Finch to access the SRT, before focusing on cutting a few minutes off a subway ride?
Click to expand...

+1

Sharon am I understanding your proposal correctly? Train A leaves Finch serving Sheppard, York Mills, Eglinton and Bloor station, and every station south of Bloor. So far so good? After Spadina station does the train continue on as an express (i.e. serving St Clair W, Eglinton W, Yorkdale, Downsview) or does it revert to local? How about the reverse? Does a train leaving Downsview travel express to Spadina or local?

Do all trains follow this station spacing? Or do some trains serve other stations (like say NYCC, etc).
 
I wasn't kidding. I did suggest it would take a couple times to get it.

I would love to share a map with you, but this would not be the right thing for me to do in light of things.

All I can say is this is still the evaluation stage, discovery stage, and understanding this was my very first meetings.

To answer your question.

From Davisville , there would be only one stop to Yonge & Bloor.

That stop would be Eglinton.Cross the platform, then a straight run to Yonge and Bloor.

The Eglinton Train would stop every about 1 minutes 20 seconds.

You go to work in the opposite direction, and you arrive in about half the time.

The trains would be about HALF FULL.

There are no A & B trains.

There are no track sidings.

All trains travel faster to downtown Toronto, with predetermined station skipping, yet all stations are serviced.

Obtain a TTC map and see what you could come up with. The challenge is fun. I wonder if you would come up with the same solutions I have.
The key is ULTIMATE EFFICIENCY IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT PLATFORM SAFETY AND APPROAPRIATED STATION SKIPPING., while serving all your stations.
Have fun with it. Be part of innovation solutions. If I like would you propose. I promise to pay you from my compensation, when it happens.
Remember, for Toronto alone, the new revenue potential annually I have computed as being 1.346 billion each and every year.
Sharon.
 
subway safety said:
To answer your question.

From Davisville , there would be only one stop to Yonge & Bloor.

That stop would be Eglinton.Cross the platform, then a straight run to Yonge and Bloor.

The Eglinton Train would stop every about 1 minutes 20 seconds.

You go to work in the opposite direction, and you arrive in about half the time.
Click to expand...

Answered part of the question. My query though was for someone going from Davisville to Dundas or College, not Bloor. I'd also like a compilation of the times for the various stages contrasted against the same trip taken with the current system so as to demonstrate your claim of half the time.

What Eglinton train stops every 1:20? Does that mean a train stops at Eglinton every 1:20? I'm not asking about frequency as I'll assume a train is always ready at the platform for the purpose of this scenario. I want to know how long the trip itself would take, including estimated station dwell times.

If you'll note by previously posted calculations (updated to remove a stop at St Clair):

With the current setup, it will take: 1:30 + 0:30 (leaving St Clair) + 1:00 + 0:30 (leaving Summerhill) + 1:00 + 0:30 (leaving Rosedale) + 1:00 + 0:30 (leaving Bloor) + 1:00 + 0:30 (leaving Wellesley) + 1:00 = 9:00.

With the new proposal, they must travel north to Eglinton, south to Queen, then north to College.

New travel time: 1:30 (assume no Eglinton dwell) + 5:00 (your estimation of Eglinton to Bloor) + 0:30 (leaving Bloor) + 2:00 + 0:30 (have to switch to northbound Queen platform) + 1:00 + 0:30 (leaving Dundas) + 1:00 = 12:00.

12:00 is not half the time of 9:00.

If we just go with your Davisville to Bloor:

Current system: 6:00

Your proposal: 6:30.

Again, 6:30 is not half of 6:00 (and 6:30 includes a lot of overly optimistic assumptions).

Instead of repeating the same lines about your factor of improvements, how about sharing the calculations you did that produced those improvements? Right now it looks like your system is taking longer and adding significant transfer and confusion hassles to passengers. Certainly not conducive for safety.
 
Alright, so if I'm correct, AM peak service on the Yonge line should look something like this:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=112509077600247168599.00047c8518648b54112b7&ll=43.708586,-79.400597&spn=0.185139,0.349846&z=12

Its certainly an interesting idea for a stop-gap measure but we really need to get automatic train control on the Yonge line as soon as possible so we can maintain local service in the peak direction during peak hours

Will stations like yonge-eglinton, and yonge-bloor be able to handle the additional transfers?

Oh, and by the way, this visualization took 10 minutes to make.
 
Wow ... I'd pity someone who commutes from North York Centre to Davisville. That becomes a 2-transfer trip!

A lot of the AM peak traffic on the Bloor-Danforth are students travelling to various high schools along the route, at Coxwell, Castle Frank, Greenwood, etc. For many of these, it also becomes 2-transfer trips.

Certainly an original, creative, idea.

But it won't happen.

If everyone on the subway was travelling to the downtown core, it would work. But many don't!
 
subway safety said:
I wasn't kidding. I did suggest it would take a couple times to get it.

I would love to share a map with you, but this would not be the right thing for me to do in light of things.

All I can say is this is still the evaluation stage, discovery stage, and understanding this was my very first meetings.

To answer your question.

From Davisville , there would be only one stop to Yonge & Bloor.

That stop would be Eglinton.Cross the platform, then a straight run to Yonge and Bloor.

The Eglinton Train would stop every about 1 minutes 20 seconds.

You go to work in the opposite direction, and you arrive in about half the time.

The trains would be about HALF FULL.

There are no A & B trains.

There are no track sidings.

All trains travel faster to downtown Toronto, with predetermined station skipping, yet all stations are serviced.

Obtain a TTC map and see what you could come up with. The challenge is fun. I wonder if you would come up with the same solutions I have.
The key is ULTIMATE EFFICIENCY IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT PLATFORM SAFETY AND APPROAPRIATED STATION SKIPPING., while serving all your stations.
Have fun with it. Be part of innovation solutions. If I like would you propose. I promise to pay you from my compensation, when it happens.
Remember, for Toronto alone, the new revenue potential annually I have computed as being 1.346 billion each and every year.
Sharon.
Click to expand...

Thanks. So tell me what happens on the western leg of the YUS? Do trains running north of Spadina revert to local service or does it skip stations?

And what does this have to do with your improved passenger platform flow proposal vis a vis yonge/bloor station. Sounds like you've reverted to full platform barriers, I thought those were expensive and unnecessary
 
In some scenarios backtracking to an express stop may get you there faster, but only for the people traveling long distances. Why does the TTC want to encourage long trips, and discourage short ones? I won't bother with the ridiculous math being used, but I assure you my Lansdowne to Bathurst trip would take WAY longer.

And I really don't get how the trains are now only half full. Same frequency, same total riders. I think you may be forgetting that the back-trackers will be re-boarding at the express stations. And now those express stations (already the busiest) will have to handle all those back-trackers on the platform as well. So every person going to Rosedale, Summerhill, Sherbourne and Castle Frank have to back-track from the busiest station on the line? Congratulations, you just made Bloor-Yonge explode.

Even if your super-flomax passenger management system (or whatever) could handle this unnecessary station overload....why? People don't want extra transfers, even if it does save 5 minutes. The current system is fast enough, it's just overloaded, and this plan doesn't change that.

What ever happened to the grocery store sliding doors barrier idea? That was a fairly simple, feasible idea one could attempt to monetize. Start a company, hire some engineers, design and install cost-effective barriers/doors. I think you're in over your head with this latest idea, and you can't make money on it.
 
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