Shabby Public Realm

[pman]

Yes, and that's only because WT - as a quasi-independent agency - is in the driver seat when it comes to public realm and not having nickle and dime each design decision and succumb to excessive amount of value engineering (can you imagine how council would have reacted if they are in the driver seat, re: parasols and sand - or moving a granite piece of that size?). I would rephrase your last sentence however - this quality is what we should have every right to expect in Toronto but one that turned out more exception than the rule.

AoD

That's true. I've often wondered if the right model for Toronto would be for WT to take over responsibility from the City for public realm design, building and maintenance in a widening circle of adjacent areas. Of course it would need stable funding but that could be achieved by a carve out of a percentage of Toronto property taxes, development levies, and transfers from higher levels of government. We can't reasonably expect any Council elected by the amalgamated city to deliver a public realm that isn't poorly designed, shoddily built, auto-centric and under-maintained. Even in the odd instance where Toronto tries to build something right, you know that within ten years it will be a shabby mess. Better to put as much of our public realm as possible in the hands of a decently funded unelected agency. I actually mean that by the way.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That's true. I've often wondered if the right model for Toronto would be for WT to take over responsibility from the City for public realm design, building and maintenance in a widening circle of adjacent areas. Of course it would need stable funding but that could be achieved by a carve out of a percentage of Toronto property taxes, development levies, and transfers from higher levels of government. We can't reasonably expect any Council elected by the amalgamated city to deliver a public realm that isn't poorly designed, shoddily built, auto-centric and under-maintained. Even in the odd instance where Toronto tries to build something right, you know that within ten years it will be a shabby mess. Better to put as much of our public realm as possible in the hands of a decently funded unelected agency. I actually mean that by the way.

I tend to agree - though it would raise important issues around accountability. Conversely perhaps funding and maintenance of parks should be devolved to community council level, and I think there is room for the neighbourhood to help maintain park spaces (instead of relying on city staff to do everything).

My favorite comparator to Sugar Beach is HtO - similar design intent, almost the same firms (Janet Rosenberg and Claude Cormier instead of just the latter), except that it is city-lead - totally different level of excellence in terms of details (as in - does not compare well at all).

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Another excellent article from Marcus Gee:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-parks-suffer-from-lack-of-pride/article31569961/

It wasn’t long after it opened in 2010 that Mr. Leung started seeing maintenance problems. A city worker ran his lawnmower through the rose bushes. The landscaping and lawns started going to seed. (A city spokesman says that maintaining the grounds is a challenge in part because, sitting next to a big development, it is heavily used by people and dogs.)

When someone sprayed graffiti on the canoe, workers painted it over with the wrong shade of red, even though the developer had given the city samples of the original paint. When the O in the Canoe Landing sign disappeared, it took more than a year to replace it. Mr. Leung wonders how it can take so long “just to fix one letter.” As for the beaver dam, the water feature hasn’t worked in two years, so it stands dry and empty.

I am so glad to see Gee ripping into them on the little details (like mismatching paint) as well as the usual dry fountains. If they don't have pride in the space they help manage, they should not be working where they are working. Same goes for the TTC - just look at the slobs of ticket collectors at the stations. Does those workers suggest pride in the organization - and by extension, excellence to you?

AoD

 

[ttk77]

Speaking of poorly maintained parks, does anyone know what's going on with the Rees st. park down on Queens Quay? It looks like they've started tearing the whole thing out. They've fenced off the whole park, removed a number of trees and brought in bulldozers that are flattening out all the hilly terrain.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Speaking of poorly maintained parks, does anyone know what's going on with the Rees st. park down on Queens Quay? It looks like they've started tearing the whole thing out. They've fenced off the whole park, removed a number of trees and brought in bulldozers that are flattening out all the hilly terrain.

Work related to the York street ramp removal:

http://thebulletin.ca/patient-yqna finally-gets-off-ramp-and-park-on-planning-agenda/

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

With the demands from Ebenezer Tory of 2.6% cuts, cuts, cuts in the budget for everyone, I'm expecting more and more shabbiness everywhere. Only where the councillors or mayor will be around for a photo-op, will there be improvements. Then once they leave from the photo-op, the area will return to its former shabby appearance.

 

[pman]

With the demands from Ebenezer Tory of 2.6% cuts, cuts, cuts in the budget for everyone, I'm expecting more and more shabbiness everywhere. Only where the councillors or mayor will be around for a photo-op, will there be improvements. Then once they leave from the photo-op, the area will return to its former shabby appearance.

It's true that across the board budget cuts will likely make our public realm even shabbier. However, we need to do some soul-searching about how the City organizes to maintain its public spaces, and whether we get any value for the money we spend. I suspect we could learn a lot from cities that get this stuff right - Cambridge MA comes to mind. For that matter, even Philadelphia manages to do a wonderful job of maintaining its downtown parks. But of course this is Toronto so we will learn nothing and never change.

 

[DSC]

I suspect we could learn a lot from cities that get this stuff right - Cambridge MA comes to mind. For that matter, even Philadelphia manages to do a wonderful job of maintaining its downtown parks. But of course this is Toronto so we will learn nothing and never change.

I visit Philly occasionally and though they DO have some nice and well maintained public parks they also have many that aren't. (A bit like Toronto!). One thing Philly DOES have is a powerful parks lobby group ( http://www.philaparks.org/ ) but then we have Park People ( https://parkpeople.ca/ ) Again, a bit like us.

 

[kEiThZ]

Nobody should get their house up. Nothing will change. After all, what motivation does a suburbanite have to pay higher taxes to maintain facilities that don't benefit him/her? That's the fundamental problem. They don't see value for their tax dollars. Hence, they want cuts.

There's a downtown centric focus on UT that misses the forest for the trees. Come up with more city wide standards and more of the city might support these sorts of initiatives. Better yet, come up with a support infrastructure to empower neighborhoods. There are enough retired people who would turn neighborhood parks into gems with the right support.

 

[Northern Light]

With the demands from Ebenezer Tory of 2.6% cuts, cuts, cuts in the budget for everyone, I'm expecting more and more shabbiness everywhere. Only where the councillors or mayor will be around for a photo-op, will there be improvements. Then once they leave from the photo-op, the area will return to its former shabby appearance.

I am not going to be Tory's apologist, I will say, however, don't expect 2.6% cuts across the board.

Its a standard political move to make new 'revenue tools' more defensible (See, we did everything we could to avoid this).

Its also useful because the bureaucracy can and will throw up some low-hanging fruit that most people think should be cut, and their defence
to their staff is 'The Mayor made us'

Let's agree there are lots of areas that need NEW funding; and particularly on the capital side, this is no trifling sum. So Tory can and must be judged by the extent
of new revenue proposals as well as the budget that actually passes.

If he confirms you worst fears, I'll be the first to condemn; but at the moment, I see this as nothing more than pro-forma posturing.

 

[Northern Light]

Nobody should get their house up. Nothing will change. After all, what motivation does a suburbanite have to pay higher taxes to maintain facilities that don't benefit him/her? That's the fundamental problem. They don't see value for their tax dollars. Hence, they want cuts.

There's a downtown centric focus on UT that misses the forest for the trees. Come up with more city wide standards and more of the city might support these sorts of initiatives. Better yet, come up with a support infrastructure to empower neighborhoods. There are enough retired people who would turn neighborhood parks into gems with the right support.

I don't really buy this.

I read the budgets every year, down to the 'blue book' level (think replacing the carpet on the 8th floor of building x)

The 'burbs' get their share of projects. If you looked at libraries, there's a sparkly new one w/lots of design to it sitting in Scarborough City Centre; while a major reno/expansion is underway
in another Scarborough Branch, Eglinton Square, North York is about to see the Bayview branch relocated and drastically expanded, Albion is getting the same treatment in Etobicoke.

If one looked at Recreation ctr spending, the last significant new Rec. Ctr was Warden Hill Top in Scarborough, while the new one in former city of York is about to open at Black Creek/Eglinton.

Major new facilities are set to go in in Western North York as well as the far North East of Scarborough.

The last new District-class park was/is McCowan in Scarborough.

The subway extension (Spadina) is in suburbia, the one before that was Sheppard.

While roads investments are led by items like 'Six Points' now underway in Etobicoke.

If you were discussing operations, hours aren't flawlessly harmonized but are roughly equal throughout the City for rec centres and libraries.

I'm not sure what standard you want to bring the burbs in on that they aren't already benefiting from?

Not to say there isn't lots to do, in those areas of the City, but I wouldn't say there has been inordinate neglect.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Also, what about less desirable issues that downtown has to take on - e.g. public homelessness, drug use, mental health? I mean, if you really want to talk about "service standards"...

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Another excellent article from Marcus Gee:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-parks-suffer-from-lack-of-pride/article31569961/



I am so glad to see Gee ripping into them on the little details (like mismatching paint) as well as the usual dry fountains. If they don't have pride in the space they help manage, they should not be working where they are working. Same goes for the TTC - just look at the slobs of ticket collectors at the stations. Does those workers suggest pride in the organization - and by extension, excellence to you?

AoD

I know something about Parks.........

There is real frustration inside the department at how incredibly hard it is to get things done.

I can tell you I know a supervisor who upon touring a park newly under his watch, found a 1/2 dozen things to 'work order' immediately.

Exactly one, which was a serious safety issue was done quickly..........a few took a month or two......while two that I know of are still outstanding........

The items, taken on their own were all relatively small, they could be done by in-house staff who have the required expertise, or by trusted contractors on a quick no-tender basis, because they were
cheap, small fixes.

That three months on some of them haven't been dealt with causes apoplexy to the person who issued the orders and has to defend the state of 'his' park outwardly.

It is not a money question in these cases.

There is a shortage of money for some items and big projects or high-minded design.

But a lot of what goes wrong is managable if people care and 'systems' work.

That same supervisor also has an opinion about the new drinking fountains being installed in most parks...........flimsy, poor quality, won't last, ugly.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I know something about Parks.........

There is real frustration inside the department at how incredibly hard it is to get things done.

I can tell you I know a supervisor who upon touring a park newly under his watch, found a 1/2 dozen things to 'work order' immediately.

Exactly one, which was a serious safety issue was done quickly..........a few took a month or two......while two that I know of are still outstanding........

The items, taken on their own were all relatively small, they could be done by in-house staff who have the required expertise, or by trusted contractors on a quick no-tender basis, because they were
cheap, small fixes.

That three months on some of them haven't been dealt with causes apoplexy to the person who issued the orders and has to defend the state of 'his' park outwardly.

It is not a money question in these cases.

There is a shortage of money for some items and big projects or high-minded design.

But a lot of what goes wrong is managable if people care and 'systems' work.

That same supervisor also has an opinion about the new drinking fountains being installed in most parks...........flimsy, poor quality, won't last, ugly.

Then what is the problem? Why is it so hard to get done if it is not a money issue? Someone please draw a decision tree with timelines - clearly it is a process issue, and my question is how can one trim it down?

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Then what is the problem? Why is it so hard to get done if it is not a money issue? Someone please draw a decision tree with timelines - clearly it is a process issue, and my question is how can one trim it down?

AoD

In what I do, I don't work FOR the City, but I do work with them from time to time.

I can't tell you what the exact process is, maybe I can get it out of someone.

Or perhaps someone else here knows.

My instinct is that too many people have to sign off on things; that nothing happens when people go on vacation.

(example, a major road project 3-4 years ago was included in the capital budget and materials went out the public saying it would happen......
the responsible planner took parental leave and something came up where the design had to be modified. Rather than reassign the work, the whole project was delayed
one year till the original planner returned. )

But there are some other issues that can't be explained satisfactorily.

Its not just a 'pride' thing.......[/QUOTE]