Shabby Public Realm

[pman]

If I'm not mistaken, orange is for telecommunications. That's a really good idea re: discussing the problem of nasty sidewalk repairs with KWT to see if there's a better way for departments/contractors to better co-ordinate the work and improve patch jobs plus in a more timely fashion, as I noted those markings have been there for nearly a month now. After all, nearly half of her Ward is in one of the busist, most high profile areas in the city so if she was onboard with the idea I'm sure she'd work with Councillors Vaughan & McConnel on the issue.

It's really encouraging to think other members of Council might get involved. But moving from what is to be done to how, what do you think the right approach is here? I'm totally naive about politics so aside from emailing KWT's office (she's my Councillor) I don't know what else we can do.

 

[DSC]

The colours are:

Orange- phone and cable
Blue - water
Green - sewer
Red - electric
Purple - steam
Yellow - gas

These painted utility locates are not necessarily a sign that a major (or even any) excavation is planned - they are sometimes done while they update the underground maps - and just because all the lines are orange does not necessarly mean that the phone guys are about to dig - it could be water or ??

The City recently (2011?) increased the fees for making utility cuts and, in theory anyway, they get enough $$ from the utility companies to permanently repair the cuts. (Until they are repaired the utility is supposed to keep the patching OK.) It is 'policy' to allow these excavations to settle properly before making permanent repairs so most sit for a minimum of a year and many for several years as it is cheaper and more efficient to repair a whole street or area at a time. This year the City did a huge number of utility cut repairs in Wards 27 and 28. They worked north to south and are still doing them close to The Esplanade. Part of the problem is that there were a huge number to do because Hydro replaced all their many handwells in this area.

It is certainly good to let councillors know that we expect these utility cuts to be repaired speedily - I think it was citizen and councillor pressure that got the fees increased so that they met the actual costs.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/...dd_value_to_financial_district_the_fixer.html

But for now, the new Toronto Financial District Business Improvement Area will aim for less cluttered sidewalks on Bay St. and utility poles that are not covered with rust, graffiti and posters.

...

Sidewalk improvements and a cleaner look to utility poles on Bay will be the focus for 2013, said Humes, noting that the poles will be wrapped with a material that hides rust and repels postering and graffiti.

AoD

 

[mrgrieves]

Thanks for sharing the article. Does anyone know how other cities go about managing streetscapes and the like? Is the Toronto model (whereby these responsibilities seem to be that of the BIA but the city will chip in) common?

I'm from Montreal originally and it seemed like the city took responsibility for the streetscape. I'm sure BIAs exist but their responsibilities are more concerned with street fairs, promoting businesses, etc. Montreal has much more streamlined, consistent and less cluttered streets and I wonder if how they manage them is the cause of this.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I think that the BIA and local community and park group route is the only way forward for Toronto. I feel amalgamated Toronto is too large to standardize these kind of streetscape issues across the whole city and appreciate the local conditions and dynamics on the ground in every corner of the city. I know that London UK is broken down into small independent cities that do their own streetscape and parkscape stuff; however, these cities aren't much bigger geographically than our Wards.

P.S. I know there are some people who admire the asthetics and design elements of some Montreal streetscapes however the up-keep, maintenance and cleanliness of Montreal is not something to emulate because it clearly does not work as well as whatever we are doing here.

 

[mrgrieves]

I think that the BIA and local community and park group route is the only way forward for Toronto. I feel amalgamated Toronto is too large to standardize these kind of streetscape issues across the whole city and appreciate the local conditions and dynamics on the ground in every corner of the city. I know that London UK is broken down into small independent cities that do their own streetscape and parkscape stuff; however, these cities aren't much bigger geographically than our Wards.

BIAs can be effective at creating or maintaining an attractive streetscape, but only where the businesses they represent are located. What about residential areas on primary Toronto streets? Even non-commercial areas located one street away from a BIA's boundary? Under the BIA route who is responsible and more importantly who is financing any improvements or maintenance to streetscape? It seems like having a Ward (similar to the London model you present) being responsible for streetscape is a better system. Money a BIA is able to raise is a bonus.

P.S. I know there are some people who admire the asthetics and design elements of some Montreal streetscapes however the up-keep, maintenance and cleanliness of Montreal is not something to emulate because it clearly does not work as well as whatever we are doing here.

While I agree that Montreal's streets are generally dirtier than TO's, there are very few overhead wires, there are many more healthy mature trees, there are no streetcar tracks or wires, generally much less clutter and there is much more consistency in streetscape across the city. Just curious but which element of TO's streetscape do you feel is better?

 

[adma]

While I agree that Montreal's streets are generally dirtier than TO's, there are very few overhead wires, there are many more healthy mature trees, there are no streetcar tracks or wires,

There's lots of people who might argue that Montreal's lack of "streetcar tracks or wires" is a net minus, because they joined in the N American post-WWII trend of shortsightedly ditching its streetcar networks...

 

[mrgrieves]

There's lots of people who might argue that Montreal's lack of "streetcar tracks or wires" is a net minus, because they joined in the N American post-WWII trend of shortsightedly ditching its streetcar networks...

Except that Montreal built something superior to streetcars, which is a comprehensive metro network. Something TO desperately needs. Aside from nostalgic reasons, how many people in Montreal talk about the return of streetcars? Anyways this is unrelated to the topic of this discussion

 

[junctionist]

While I agree that Montreal's streets are generally dirtier than TO's, there are very few overhead wires, there are many more healthy mature trees, there are no streetcar tracks or wires, generally much less clutter and there is much more consistency in streetscape across the city. Just curious but which element of TO's streetscape do you feel is better?

It's true that in some respects, Montreal's streets are cleaner: overhead wires are more extensively buried, attractive street lights and poles are more extensively used, there is a ban on newspaper boxes, there are often healthy trees growing and traffic lights are not hung across the road in many older parts of the city but simply mounted on single poles at the corners of the intersections. I don't think there's much of a difference in terms of tagging and graffiti between Toronto and Montreal, and I didn't notice more litter on the streets of Montreal when I visited last summer.

Except that Montreal built something superior to streetcars, which is a comprehensive metro network. Something TO desperately needs. Aside from nostalgic reasons, how many people in Montreal talk about the return of streetcars? Anyways this is unrelated to the topic of this discussion

It's not that comprehensive. Many urbanists in Montreal would love to see modern streetcars on their streets.

 

[Adjei]

In Toronto these days, an attractive public realm would be termed "gravy", so I don't see any changes happening. Rusted streetlights, hydro wires, patched up sidewalks is what we will have to live with.

 

[Tewder]

In Toronto these days, an attractive public realm would be termed "gravy", so I don't see any changes happening. Rusted streetlights, hydro wires, patched up sidewalks is what we will have to live with.

... and in some circles here it would be considered an affront to our moral/social fiber, that any penny spent on the realm is food out of some innocent waif's mouth (so to speak).

 

[adma]

Aside from nostalgic reasons, how many people in Montreal talk about the return of streetcars?

Except that you can make such arguments about *anything"--y'know, how many people talk about returning the urban fabric which the Eaton Centre wiped out in the 70s, etc. The trouble there is, it doesn't mean we'd do it (or *should* do it) the same way today.

But then again, given your thoughts on streetcars and other issues like the Nathan Phillips Square walkways, you clearly belong in the urban-discussion equivalent of the "reopening-the-abortion-debate" camp.

 

[mrgrieves]

Except that you can make such arguments about *anything"--y'know, how many people talk about returning the urban fabric which the Eaton Centre wiped out in the 70s, etc. The trouble there is, it doesn't mean we'd do it (or *should* do it) the same way today.

But then again, given your thoughts on streetcars and other issues like the Nathan Phillips Square walkways, you clearly belong in the urban-discussion equivalent of the "reopening-the-abortion-debate" camp.

You didn't answer the question. And really you have nothing better to do than sit in your parent's basement and read old posts I've made? What fun that sounds like.

 

[adma]

You didn't answer the question. And really you have nothing better to do than sit in your parent's basement and read old posts I've made? What fun that sounds like.

I did answer the question obliquely, through the Eaton Centre metaphor. That is, most modern Torontonians are acclimatized to the Eaton Centre; and much like Montreal's Metro, the EC Galleria is a genuine urban landmark. Technically, very few long for the former urban fabric that the EC wiped out, either because they don't remember it, or they took its wiping-out for granted at the time: an understandable amnesia. And technically, the history buffs and nostalgists who *do* regret that wiping out may be "vocal", but scarce in number, or else viewing it excessively through the prism of modern-day "heritage values". The Eaton Centre, and the demolitions that made it possible, happened when it could have "safely" happened, much as the exterminations of streetcar networks in Montreal and other places happened when they did. But it doesn't mean you can get away so easily with doing it the same way today.

And to be fair, it doesn't take "sitting in one's parent's basement" to recognize that city planners factored out message-boarding amateurs like you a long time ago (that is, unless the Ford brothers decided to "clean house" on your behalf)

 

[greenleaf]

The fountains at University and Queen. So, so close to being done: http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/...ins_still_dry_five_years_later_the_fixer.html