Seven ways to make Toronto a world-class city again

[wopchop]

Most come to the GTA as they flee economic, political or safety/security problems. Under those circumstances any safe and free city within a welcoming society would do. That doesn't make Toronto world class.

Now, New York today, IMO is world class in this regard, at least Manhattan. Unlike its original desperate immigration foundations, today people move to Manhattan to be part of its cultural and business success. No one flees to Manhattan.

Because they cannot afford it. Have to been to any boroughs besides Manhattan? Because I have, and there are tons of immigrants. Tons.

No, they flee to Queens, Brooklyn and the Bronx.

Exactly.

 

[TheKingEast]

I think your fixation on this very topic is a rather clear indicator of insecurity in general.

AoD

I guess we're all insecure then.

 

[Adjei]

Gentrification can push others out. There was a statement early in this thread that a world-class Toronto would be home to middle-class and professional people. But old Toronto has always had a more diverse crowd. Much of its housing stock from half a century ago consists of modest working class homes. Threads in this forum in which upcoming retail wishes are discussed often focus on upscale brands found in supposedly world-class cities, or on hangout patios for the young and wealthy. Constant upward pressure on the costs of real estate not only pushes people out of housing, but also lessens small-scale business opportunity. Do we want the messy but accessible retail structure of say Chinatown replaced with that of Aura's basement?

I don't see how improving our shitty public realm will drive people out or would you prefer it looks crap forever? As for gentrification pushing people out. Have you seen what's going on in Regent Park? Would you want the old Regent Park which was a no go zone for many people to what it is developing now into a more inclusive place? I sure wouldn't. I just don't see how any so called negatives which may come with improving our public realm and demanding better architecture outweighs the many positives which come with it.

 

[typezed]

I like very much what they've done in Regent Park. It's an attempt to give space and opportunity to people from across the economic spectrum. To maintain or even increase diversity. Even Rosedale once had some modest mid-rise apartments built in amongst the mansions (although I don't know how affordable they ever were). Nothing wrong either with people of means coming in and improving buildings and streets, as long as developers and planners aren't seeking to place the suburban monoculture downtown, accessible only to accountants, lawyers, mid-management civil servants and real estate traders. As for the public realm it is always going to be a dynamic, things will always be ageing and standards will always be changing and there will never be enough money. I like most of the big projects constructed in the city over the last decade or so, but sometimes residents might be better served by more modest goals, sometimes maybe all that's needed in a park is a swingset and room to toss a frisbee rather than a world-class art project for renderpeople.

 

[King of Kensington]

Because they cannot afford it. Have to been to any boroughs besides Manhattan? Because I have, and there are tons of immigrants. Tons.

Manhattan is not nearly as diverse as Brooklyn and Queens. Manhattan south of 96th is pretty dominated by affluent white people. It has a big Chinese population on the Lower East Side. Most Blacks and Hispanics in the borough live north of 96th which has more of an "outer borough" character. Central Harlem is predominantly Black (and not actually as gentrified as people say it is), East Harlem Puerto Rican and Washington Heights Dominican.

It's true there are a lot of wealthy jet-setters from all over the world in prime Manhattan, but most immigrants in New York are working class people without "world class" pretensions.

 

[wopchop]

Manhattan is not nearly as diverse as Brooklyn and Queens. Manhattan south of 96th is pretty dominated by affluent white people. It has a big Chinese population on the Lower East Side. Most Blacks and Hispanics in the borough live north of 96th which has more of an "outer borough" character. Central Harlem is predominantly Black (and not actually as gentrified as people say it is), East Harlem Puerto Rican and Washington Heights Dominican.

It's true there are a lot of wealthy jet-setters from all over the world in prime Manhattan, but most immigrants in New York are working class people without "world class" pretensions.

I don't think we disagree? That's exactly what I'm saying. I disagree with the notion that people are simply moving to NYC because of cultural or business success. There are thousands who immigrate there for working class jobs - which is easy to see if you take a tour through the outer boroughs.

Part of the point is that tourists visiting NYC are seeing Lower and Midtown Manhattan, and maybe the Brooklyn waterfront. They aren't necessarily seeing what life is like in New York City for a huge percentage of the population. Like you said, even on Manhattan there are variations, such as Harlem or Washington Heights (which is where I lived while in New York). This applies to a lot of other "world-class" cities. Just look at Paris with it's suburban ghettos.

 

[King of Kensington]

Gentrification can push others out. There was a statement early in this thread that a world-class Toronto would be home to middle-class and professional people. But old Toronto has always had a more diverse crowd?

Toronto hardly has a shortage of affluent professionals. One of the city's strengths is you have very mixed neighborhoods both in terms of ethnicity and socioeconomically.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Because they cannot afford it.

World class cities do not need to be affordable for the mob. Who lives in Manhattan, downtown London, Rome,Tokyo or Paris?

 

[typezed]

Toronto hardly has a shortage of affluent professionals. One of the city's strengths is you have very mixed neighborhoods both in terms of ethnicity and socioeconomically.

I wasn't saying any different. I was reacting to statements that central Toronto should only house affluent professionals. I agree that the one of its strengths is mixed neighbourhoods. But that can slip away with elitist ideas of 'world-class' and declining affordability.

Anyway, think of the movies. "Go'in Down The Road" and "Scott Pilgrim" don't much measure up to all the images you've seen of New York, London, Paris and Rome. Toronto is a regional center with relatively little history. So maybe there's little risk of it becoming too world-class. Good thing for the mob. Maybe that leaves some chance of maintaining the peaceful liveable balance it now has, instead of becoming a place of exclusivity surrounded by pockets of poverty.

 

[JGHali]

I will say that taking the bus from La Guardia through Queens to the subway made for an interesting trip. Not at all like Manhattan, much more like a lot of areas in TO (especially "inner" suburbs).

Actually I think Scott Pilgrim showcases the city in a pretty sublime way. Casa Loma, Bathurst and Bloor, the Annex - maybe not iconic like the Eiffel Tower or Westminster - but still uniquely Toronto. But the CN Tower and even City Hall might just qualify. After all, no other contemporary municipal building has appeared in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Admiral, I'm a critic of immigration policy as well but you post regularly about immigrants and I'm not sure it paints an accurate picture of who most new immigrants are. It takes a lot of guts and determination to become a Canadian citizen. The profile of poor immigrants fleeing deprivation is more applicable to Europe or the United States. The profile of a typical Canadian immigrant is:

-Strong family values
-Advanced education (much higher than Canadian average)
-Comes from middle-class background and originating from one of the more wealthy areas of the source country
-Very interested in assimilation and Canadian culture (immigrants show stronger affiliation with Canadian traditional values than Natural born Canadians)
-Money in the bank. It can easily take $100,000 in savings to support yourself in the transition toward Permanent Residency or Citizenship regardless of your working profile

So in conclusion, while there are economic migrant, family reunifications, people gaming the system etc. The profile of the average Canadian immigrant is more likely to be middle-class, young, highly educated, has money in the bank, and is more adaptive and cares more about traditional values (including adopting Canadian values) than the average Canadian.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Admiral, I'm a critic of immigration policy as well but you post regularly about immigrants and I'm not sure it paints an accurate picture of who most new immigrants are. It takes a lot of guts and determination to become a Canadian citizen. The profile of poor immigrants fleeing deprivation is more applicable to Europe or the United States. The profile of a typical Canadian immigrant is:

-Strong family values
-Advanced education (much higher than Canadian average)
-Comes from middle-class background and originating from one of the more wealthy areas of the source country
-Very interested in assimilation and Canadian culture (immigrants show stronger affiliation with Canadian traditional values than Natural born Canadians)
-Money in the bank. It can easily take $100,000 in savings to support yourself in the transition toward Permanent Residency or Citizenship regardless of your working profile

So in conclusion, while there are economic migrant, family reunifications, people gaming the system etc. The profile of the average Canadian immigrant is more likely to be middle-class, young, highly educated, has money in the bank, and is more adaptive and cares more about traditional values (including adopting Canadian values) than the average Canadian.

This is a debate about making a world-class city into a world-class city. If you're going to introduce reality now, we'll have to start over.

My French wife (Grande Ecole educated, slumming by marrying me) thanks you for the support!

In my family, the debate about 'damn those immigrants' stops every time someone glances at Anne-Sophie, starts mumbling, then turns red-faced. It's kind of fun.

 

[wopchop]

World class cities do not need to be affordable for the mob. Who lives in Manhattan, downtown London, Rome,Tokyo or Paris?

If that is something that it takes to be world-class, then being world-class is overrated. I'd rather live in a livable, equitable and functioning city, than one of extreme economic stratification.

 

[King of Kensington]

I will say that taking the bus from La Guardia through Queens to the subway made for an interesting trip. Not at all like Manhattan, much more like a lot of areas in TO (especially "inner" suburbs).

Queens is the Toronto of the USA. While we're often compared with Chicago (founded around the same time and on Great Lakes), Queens feels more like Toronto to me. No place is a carbon copy of the other, but Queens is as close to Toronto as you'll get in terms of demographics and urban form.

 

[Jonny5]

TLDR: late-twenty-somethings have existential crisis upon realizing there are no world class cities; and that moving to a tiny condo in downtown Toronto and fetishizing every mass-produced global food/music/tech/style trend they could find on the internet made them more generic and boring people than before they came.