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Self-Driving Vehicles/Autonomous Vehicle Technology

You may have also addressed my other thought on no ownership cars in the city. My concern was for condo owners and the fact they'd have a parking space they paid 30-40-50K for that's now useless and unsellable. But if ZIP car style does go huge, those companies may buy your obsolete parking space off you. You'd still have to park all these autonomous cars somewhere.

That's true. It is expected that autonomous vehicles will dramatically reduce the space needed to park them. Reasons being:
1. Autonomous cars can be significantly smaller than traditional cars, taking up less spaces in parking lots.
2. Autonomous cars can theoretically be productive (moving people around) 24/7. This will reduce the amount of space needed to store a fleet of cars in a city
3. Autonomous cars can coordinate parking amongst themselves, allowing for more space efficient parking. A traditional parking lot requires space for people to get in/out of their cars and spaces for cars to drive inside of the lot. Autonomous cars won't need any of this. They could theoretically park not even a 1 cm from each other on all sides

In the city, sure, I can see a much bigger zipcar style setup. In the 905 though (and that's half the population of the GTA), they'll still own their cars. They've all got 2 car garages that would be for no reason. I guess they could convert them to another room, but they'd sure look funny.

I'm pretty sure that many home garages will be reduced to glorified storage spaces. Heck, judging from the amount of cars I see parked outside of garages in suburban homes, and my own experience seeing other people's homes, I wouldn't be surprised if most half of suburban homes are using garages as junk storage, rather than car storage. Others could be retrofitted to add additional rooms to homes; it's a trivial renovation job.
 
1. Autonomous cars can be significantly smaller than traditional cars, taking up less spaces in parking lots.

Is there a reason why autonomous cars would be expected to be smaller than the cars now? I'm assuming that the amount of equipment for the self-driving itself doesn't make a great deal of difference in terms of size/weight.

A lot of times the sizes of cars are driven by peoples' own preferences (how big of a family will use it, how spacious of one they feel comfortable in, how much area in the trunk they want to put things), not by the smallest that a car can be and still function, and if people will be owning the autonomous car for themselves, I would expect such factors to still be in play. Even if people want a self-driving car, they might still want a roomy self-driving car or one where they can stash lots of stuff.
 
In the city, sure, I can see a much bigger zipcar style setup. In the 905 though (and that's half the population of the GTA), they'll still own their cars. They've all got 2 car garages that would be for no reason. I guess they could convert them to another room, but they'd sure look funny.
Consider the scenario that there's no difference between a taxi, a black cab, a Uber, a zipcar, or a Hertz rental.
It's just a hailable car that comes to you, by itself.

Let's picture a theoretical scenario.

Greater Toronto Area, circa 2070:
There is a fleet of 100,000 hailable autonomous cars in Mississauga alone.

Hail a car.

(...You just speak, "Bring me a luxury Volvo now, please"...)


Nearest matching available vehicle is automatically located at a neighbour 200 meters away.

It pulls out of your neighbour's driveway.

It comes over and pulls up into your driveway in just 30 seconds.

Ready for you!

Many people will no longer bother owning cars, when hailable cars are that plentiful and quick to arrive.

It could be that plentiful because of economics: Carowners earning money letting their unused cars do hail service on its own. That is, a tiny fraction of your neighbour's monthly lease payment is covered. With such pricey cars and insurance, your neighbor opted-in his car into autonomous hail service whenever it's not in use. Hundreds of thousands of people GTA-wide do the same, to lower their car bill. Sending their car to drive away to service hails, even afterwards self-drive itself to a car cleaning/vaccuuming company, then self-drive itself to a car garage for maintenance, then coming back to the car owner's driveway, all cleaned up, and maintained. You lose your job, you can then opt your car to earn money for you.

Google and/or Hertz and/or Uber and/or ZipCar and/or Ford would get say a cut of hail revenues, because they wrote the hail software that's built into the car -- the software that lets carowners earn money (reduce their car bills / insurance bills) by telling their car "go do hail service by itself" to their autonomous car whenever it's not being used by the vehicle owner and the vehicle owner is needing financial relief.

Many will need to pay your kid's college by letting your car go off for nighttime hail service, by itself. By 2070, it'll probably be so expensive to own a car exclusively without opting-in the car to service other people sometimes, that there will now be 100,000 hailable cars in Mississauga alone, that it will be as quick to hail as a tourist hailing taxi in New York City.

It will be so easy, by 2070, to tell your car to go away by itself to earn money for you, while you're not using it. Especially if you are tight on money.


It will reach an equilibrium between car owners and hail users, balancing ease of hailing versus people who refuse to opt-in their car into autonomous hail service. Who knows what the equilibrium will be. However, it could be that:
-- one-third of house garages in Mississauga will be car-less (house owners who only hail)
-- one-third of house garages will have their own cars on hail service (some with multiple cars)
-- one-third of house garages owned by richer residents who avoid sending their cars into hail service.

For Mississauga of 2070, this could be 100,000 cars that are hailable. In this scenario, it can take less than 1 minute to hail a car.

Some could be luxury rides. Other hail vehicles will be on-the-fly carpooled transit (uberPOOL style, dial-a-bus style), picking up several low-income people suburban on a specific optimized route on the fly and taking them to the nearest transit station (bus/LRT/train/subway); maybe even costing only dollar per person above and beyond bus fare. There will be all sorts of hailable rides. Lower-cost hails would be shorter carpooled rides to the nearest rapid transit station.
 
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Is there a reason why autonomous cars would be expected to be smaller than the cars now? I'm assuming that the amount of equipment for the self-driving itself doesn't make a great deal of difference in terms of size/weight.

A lot of times the sizes of cars are driven by peoples' own preferences (how big of a family will use it, how spacious of one they feel comfortable in, how much area in the trunk they want to put things), not by the smallest that a car can be and still function, and if people will be owning the autonomous car for themselves, I would expect such factors to still be in play. Even if people want a self-driving car, they might still want a roomy self-driving car or one where they can stash lots of stuff.

Currently people tend to buy the biggest cars that they reasonably expect to need to space for. For example, you might pics kids up from school 3 times a wee, get groceries at Costco once a week and once a month you might shuttle around 4 people for a road trip (or whatever). Naturally you'd buy a car that has at least enough space to accommodate the space demands of those activities. At the very least a standard 5 seat, 4 door car, but likely an SUV. That means that wether or not you're driving just yourself to work, or moving groceries and 4 passengers, you'd be using the same large SUV to move around

With shared autonomous vehicles, people would only order the car size they need. If you're commuting from home to work , you'd order a one-seater. Brining your child to school would demand a two seater. Grocery shopping would be a two seater with cargo space. The result of this is that we'd need fewer large vehicles on the road.

Beyond that, there will be less space needed for equipment used by human operators, and autonomous cars might have less bulky safety equipment since they're so much less likely to be in collisions (maybe).
 
Human driving will never, ever be illegal in my lifetime (next 40 years - hopefully) Smoking isn't illegal and it's guaranteed to kill, and they've known that for 50+ years and the best they've done is restrict where you can do it. There's no way they'll make driving illegal for the foreseeable future. (my lifetime) I really don't care how they do it in a century, I'll be long dead.
Tell you what, in 40 years let's reconvene on this thread and see who's right. :)

Roads will be made incompatible with human driving? Seriously? Maybe the 400 series highways, and maybe eventually everywhere but, in like a century. And this would be fine by me anyways, the twisty two lane sideroads are way more fun. We can't afford Subways in this city or maintaining the roads we have properly and you think all of a sudden a whirlwind of change will show up and everything will get repaved to a new system? Who's paying for all that? I'll be long dead when they're complete. And how can they repave a whole system until everyone has an autonomous vehicle? Are they going to mandate everyone must buy a new car within a decade? People would lose it - and all their analog cars would be worthless, so no resale value to put towards the new car. It's not like the government will be able to give everyone rebates and build all new roads in a short period of time (even a decade.)
Yes, seriously. It doesn't have to be within a decade. The timeframe isn't important. Look at it this way. When all cars are autonomous we'll have no more need for signs, traffic lights, rumble strips, even lane markings. We'll still need something for pedestrians and cyclists, but those lights and signs are a lot smaller and cheaper than the ones intended for drivers. Not maintaining all that infrastructure will be a huge cost savings for government. Further, driverless cars don't need all the buffer space that our roads currently give drivers. A residential street doesn't have to look like this, but we build them that way to give drivers lots of room for error. All autonomous cars will need is the bare minimum amount of room to physically get trough. So when they take over and the time comes to rebuild a road, a lot of roads will probably be narrowed and have all that obsolete human driver infrastructure removed.

Like I said in my first post, I know I'm a dinosaur, I actually enjoy driving and will continue to own and buy cars without this technology. Heck, I don't even buy cars with automatic, I've only ever owned manual cars. Until they price me out either by insurance, or by gasoline prices, I will continue to drive.

It will also put Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and the rest of the super sports car companies out of business, and insurance companies to a degree. What's the point of having a 'sporty' autonomous car? They'll all be going the same speed.
I also drive a manual, and as long as I'm controlling a vehicle it's going to have a manual transmission. But I can see what's coming. The sports car manufacturers, just like countless other industries, will have to adapt. Just like with any other technological advancement.

Just playing devil's advocate again. What happens if ISIS, Al Queda or Anonymous (or whatever the terrorist group du jour is) tries to hack the entire system, or one brand? These things will be prime targets for that kind of thing.
You could ask the same question about if terrorists hacked the traffic light network so that all the lights turn green at the same time. Or the air traffic control system, or the natural gas system like in Die Hard 4. Such scenarios are about as likely as what you're bringing up. How connected driverless cars will be remains to be seen, but current models can operate without being connected to a network or talking to other cars. I don't see why this will be any different in the future. Whatever the risk of sabotage, it will still be much, much safer than what we have now.

By the way, you reminded me of this :D

I was thinking about the racing thing too - how would you find drivers in like 50 years when the system is truly widespread and no one has any experience? The other side of it though is. There may be an autonomous racing league for everyone to test new tech, although that would probably be pretty boring to watch.
Well, nobody really rides a horse to get around today, but we still have jockeys. We have photography and 3D printing, but painters and sculptors still exist. Motorized boats dominate marine trade, but there are still canoes and sailboats. Driving will be the same way: a niche activity that happens in specific locations.
 
If you're commuting from home to work , you'd order a one-seater.
Or saving money, you'd "hail the cheapest ride". That would invariably be a carpool.
That could be an autonomous carpool already headed past your location in minutes.

Apps could list all buses, solo rides, carpooled rides, and their prices and time estimates.

We may still have more bigger vehicles, just filled up more efficiently (e.g. averaging 4 passengers rather than averaging 1.2 passengers). If we have thousands of carpools all over the place, one is bound to match your itinerary quite often.
 
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Or saving money, you'd "hail the cheapest ride". That would invariably be a carpool.
That could be an autonomous carpool already headed past your location in minutes.

Apps could list all buses, solo rides, carpooled rides, and their prices and time estimates.

We may still have more bigger vehicles, just filled up more efficiently (e.g. averaging 4 passengers rather than averaging 1.2 passengers). If we have thousands of carpools all over the place, one is bound to match your itinerary quite often.

Uber has a car pooling service. It often can match me with someone to carpool during rush hour, especially when heading downtown. Saves me $5 each trip.
 
Tell you what, in 40 years let's reconvene on this thread and see who's right. :)

It's definitely going to have to be a wait and see. The dinosaur/car-junkie in me just can't wrap my head around this autonomation being so widely picked up so fast. I just don't see any interest in people a similar age as me and I'd imagine the same up to the 60ish yr olds. I also can't grasp people flipping cars so fast (but again, I'm rare) I have friends that flip cars every few years, but I hold on to mine till they're dead (the shortest time I've owned one is 12 years) But I also realize they're giant metal tissue boxes (they lose value from day one, and it never stops, making them virtually dispensable at the end,) so I try to wring every penny out of them. It's a large investment (easily 30-60K) when this technology is available and I can't comprehend the uptake being that rapid. But, in this consumerist society where you have to have a McMansion and keep up with your friends newest toys, maybe it will be that fast.
 
Personally, I believe it is a 60 year transition.
(Before my "100,000 hailable driverless cars in Mississauga" scenario)

Example progression:

Today -- I have to pay attention while the car drives itself (Tesla AutoPilot)
2020ish -- I can legally text behind the steering wheel on 401 (Level 3 autonomy)
2030ish -- I can legally nap behind the steering wheel on 401 (basic Level 4 autonomy)
2040ish -- I can legally send the car empty by itself to do its own car maintenance appointment.
2050ish -- Cars now legally drive children and drunks. Empty cars finally hailable on 100% of Toronto roads. Transit revolution occurs.
2060ish -- Hailing empty cars downtown Toronto is super easy (instant / less than 1 minute)
2070ish -- Hailing in deep low density suburban mississauga is super easy (instant / less than 1 minute) see Mississauga 2070

Note: 2020ish = "Approximately between 2020 and 2029"
Dates will vary, and also by different cities/different countries, but you get the idea.
 
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Personally, I believe it is a 60 year transition.
(Before my "100,000 hailable driverless cars in Mississauga" scenario)

Example progression:

Today -- I have to pay attention while the car drives itself (Tesla AutoPilot)
2020ish -- I can legally text behind the steering wheel on 401 (Level 3 autonomy)
2030ish -- I can legally nap behind the steering wheel on 401 (basic Level 4 autonomy)
2040ish -- I can legally send the car empty by itself to do its own car maintenance appointment.
2050ish -- Cars now legally drive children and drunks. Empty cars finally hailable on 100% of Toronto roads. Transit revolution occurs.
2060ish -- Hailing empty cars downtown Toronto is super easy (instant / less than 1 minute)
2070ish -- Hailing in deep low density suburban mississauga is super easy (instant / less than 1 minute) see Mississauga 2070

Note: 2020ish = "Approximately between 2020 and 2029"
Dates will vary, and also by different cities/different countries, but you get the idea.

Here are the levels of autonomy:
  • Level 0: The driver completely controls the vehicle at all times.
  • Level 1: Individual vehicle controls are automated, such as electronic stability control or automatic braking.
  • Level 2: At least two controls can be automated in unison, such as adaptive cruise control in combination with lane keeping.
  • Level 3: The driver can fully cede control of all safety-critical functions in certain conditions. The car senses when conditions require the driver to retake control and provides a "sufficiently comfortable transition time" for the driver to do so.
  • Level 4: The vehicle performs all safety-critical functions for the entire trip, with the driver not expected to control the vehicle at any time. As this vehicle would control all functions from start to stop, including all parking functions, it could include unoccupied cars.

We've already achieved Level 3 automation for a few years now. You should be able safely text behind the wheel of a Tesla today, though it is illegal and I don't at all recommend it. Elon Musk says they should have level 4 within the next 5 years. So about 10 years sooner than you predict.

I don't see why it would take the things you mentioned beyond 2030 take that long to happen. Once Level 4 is achieved, the human driver serves no purpose in the car. We should be able to do all you mentioned years after Level 4 is achieved.
 
I know... As I said, could happen sooner.
But see below:

Consider car replacement cycles. The first year of mandated hailable autonomy might not happen till a specific year (e.g. 2050), say, roughly ten years after the first time Ontario legally lets car drive kids/drunks through snowstorms. Circa 2040 (close to what you think). Or something like that. Picture it that way. Circa 2050. Then add 20 years of new/used car replacement cycles -- shrinking used market -- and new car purchases having mandated hailable autonomy. Consider we need enough intelligence in all cars to figure out its occupants are vandals or has had a heart attack and autonomously call for appropriate emergency attention. Then hailability finally hit huge numbers, like 100,000 hailable autonomous cars in Mississauga. Circa 2070.

I'm reposting a different post of mine, for sake of completeness as this post is buried elsewhere:

Here's some pertinent information, which I posted in another forum.

Useful information about NTHSA self driving capability levels

Level 0 -- Your old manual-shift car

Level 1 -- Your newer car with cruise control.

Level 2 -- That fancy car with automatic lanekeeping and adaptive cruise.

Level 3 -- You can safely text behind the wheel, but must intervene in an alarm.

Level 4 -- It can self-valet empty. It also can drive your kids unaccompanied to hockey practice in the middle of a snowstorm.

Tesla Autopilot is nearly Level 3; although legally it must be treated as Level 2 with full attention mandatory, and working/surfing/texting still not allowed. Eventually we may reach a point where Level 3 self-driving vehicle drivers are legally allowed to do light (interruptible) work like reading, watching movies, texting, etc, but must mandatorily intervene, say, within 10 seconds of an alarm (seatshaker, wheelshaker, klaxon alarm, etc).

_______________

Level 4 self-driving cars is going to be a big, wonderful, beautiful, very fancy Pandora's Box, with both rainbows/unicorns and skull/crossbones beaming out of it simultaneously, both utopia and dystopia. You will yank the giftwrap off the Pandora Box, suddenly causing it to pop Jack-In-A-Box style in a beautifully kablooey pop in a big shower of confetti/glitter -- figuratively speaking.​

  • Efficiency -- With the prospect of empty vehicles going home to do tasks for kids or spouses, this could be a traffic disaster for freeways. Legislation may be needed if people abuse the privelage of sending empty vehicles dozens of miles.

  • Moral -- Cars that are faced with an unavoidable fatality decision are going to decide whether to save the occupants or pedestrians. Picture the scenario of a baby stroller suddenly running in front of the car at the last second, from behind roadside newspaper boxes (unavoidably unseen by the car's sensors until too late; now a fatality has to happen). Car must instantly decide to crash into baby stroller OR suddenly veer into a parked car/lamppost 1 meter to the side. Legally solve this. Now consider the sole occupant of car is your child being soccermomed unaccompanied to school. Whose life goes? Whose Responsibility? Legislative? Insurance? Etc.

  • Manned/Unmanned interactions Unmanned vehicles interacting with manned vehicles (bicyclists, drivers, buses, ambulances, police cars). How can a police car pull over an empty vehicle for an expired plate? Will governments be comfortable legally allowing empty vehicles? Will police be? Etc.

  • Regulatory -- What you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do. People without a driver license stepping into a car? Drunk people stepping into the backseat of an empty self-driving car? How old must be children to go unaccompanied in a driverless car? Mailicious passengers trying to damage a self-driving taxi into causing an accident? Are you allowed to sleep for 8 hours in the bed at the back of a self-driving RV, or truck cab of a self-driving truck? What about self driving public transit (uber scale? carpool scale? minibus scale? large bus scale?) Etc. Etc. Etc.

  • Robustness -- How many redundant sensors and cameras must a self-driving car have (e.g. safely function at damage/loss to 25% of sensors? 50% of sensors? 75% of sensors?), so they don't cause accidents when flying road debris damages a camera. This also affects regulatory and insurance, and creates ideas of futuristic safety testing regimens, to ensure they can survive major damage and still safely recover.

  • Insurance -- What the insurance companies are willing to let you do with a Level 4 driverless car. Including all the above.

  • Safety -- Can a level 4 self-driving car safely drive in the middle of a blinding record rainstorm or major snowstorm blizzard, while carrying children that don't know what to do in an emergency? Even Google Car is currently unable to drive reliably in a rainstorm at this time. Level 4 chauffers (like unmanned Uber) isn't going to be legal until you solve this.

  • Security -- Must be upped massively. Hackers. It's already happened. Hackers remotely kill a jeep causing the car to almost park itself on a freeway! And hackers have already blinded driverless cars. Laser pointer tricks a driverless car.

  • Cost -- The cost of solving all the above, factored into your car's sticker price, your government taxes, and your monthly bills (including insurance). It may be so expensive that most carowners will give up carownership, and just hail a neighbour's empty unused car, coming over to your house Uber-style (as a result, conveniently paying a part of that neighbour's car bill!).
We will see a hell of a lot of Level 3 soon (Tesla Autopilot is already almost Level 3).

We will even see Level 4 in designated areas (e.g. campuses, special lanes, designated roads, etc), maybe not too long after, but would not include the necessary intelligence to self-taxi people yet.

But the full legally allowed Level 4 self-chauffering freedom will build up like the Big One (the earthquake) for a VERY LONG TIME, and then go pop in a spetacular fancy Pandora Box of wonderfulness.

When will full Level 4 freedom occur?

Predictions vary widely, but is completely possible because of difficult thorny steps, it may not be until the very rough neighborhood of 2040s/2050s/2060s/2070s before we finally solve ALL THE ABOVE BULLETS to drive your children in the middle of a snowstorm, for 100% complete freedom on all Canada roads -- i.e. wide-open public roads (rather than private campuses or special lanes) -- and the old manual-drive cars on the roads fall apart and being retired -- before we see GTHA roads full of full Level 4 freedom self-driving cars. It is really a BIG step, because of all the above.

Looking forward to it! Would like to sleep in the back of a car while going to Ottawa at night, whenever the full Toronto-Ottawa highspeed trains are booked solid during holidays.​
 
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What happens to motorcycles and people that love to drive them? Do they become illegal, or self driving? Just curious. Hell's Angels and other bike groups won't be happy.

Other thing I'm curious about what do you do about people 'gaming' the system? I.e. Pedestrians or bike couriers? When all cars are autonomous both of these groups would know that the autonomous vehicles will always stop to prevent a collision, so in theory, they can just step out on the street anytime they want and know the cars will stop.

Similar could happen when traffic's mixed with manual cars still. If you're driving you could intentionally veer into the lane you want knowing the autonomous cars will slow to avoid, the driver can just take the lane he wants then. Obviously in this scenario you can track the license plate and give them some sort of ticket. But it's a lot different if it's a pedestrian or bike courier. Same could be said for a street hockey game, if the kids are jerks. Would we track their cellphones and give them a ticket later? That's getting very close to big brother world and the state fining you for every indiscretion.

Lots of interesting what ifs with this new tech...........
 
I'm having such a funny image in my head of a self-driving motorcycle now.

If they can do this:

http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/the-ryno

And this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ack-200mph-soon-taking-self-driving-cars.html

Why not.

Yes, it's sort of funny, and in my opinion, pointless, but why not?

I mean, if you want the outdoor experience and self driving, just get a car that can do it, and stick your head out the window. Either way, the reason for them (and motorcycle clubs in general) was borne out of non-comformity, but with self driving everything, it's been removed. Another reason I see resistance to the whole movement. Yes it's a small segment of the population, but they'll resist it at all costs.......
 

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