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saveoursubways (SOS)

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What are you, in Grade 5?

People can say what they want. If they think it's fear, so be it. I could not care less. I don't even think we've been in touch with Steve Munro. And he certainly hasn't contacted us.

How could he have contacted you when you had not finished the report? Sounds like you are the one in Grade 5! The next City Council is not going to embrace S.O.S.'s plan and will stick with Transit City. The public might love your plan but that is not the one that will be implemented.
 
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People want live discussions because not only do you convey your message but you also convey body language and your ability to defend your plan without having to look up information. You also showcase what the SOS members look like (and in your case, a group of low-key citizens who care so much about their city)

Hahaha. If it were based on looks, Steve should be worried. As for people wanting live discussions, the funny thing is that you're the only one who's brought it up. If you are willing to pay for a venue, set the whole thing up, I'd be glad to do it. How about Scaborough Civic Centre? I'd love for Steve to stand there and explain to all the residents of the area why they shouldn't get a subway? Or the Malvern Chinese Cultural Centre? Maybe Steve can explain the towering railway to residents and why that's so much better for them than a quick bus to a subway at STC.
 
Hahaha. If it were based on looks, Steve should be worried. As for people wanting live discussions, the funny thing is that you're the only one who's brought it up. If you are willing to pay for a venue, set the whole thing up, I'd be glad to do it. How about Scaborough Civic Centre? I'd love for Steve to stand there and explain to all the residents of the area why they shouldn't get a subway? Or the Malvern Chinese Cultural Centre? Maybe Steve can explain the towering railway to residents and why that's so much better for them than a quick bus to a subway at STC.

Actually I could get a venue for SOS if needed!
 
How could he have contacted you when you had not finished the report? Sounds like you are the one in Grade 5! The next City Council is not going to embrace S.O.S.'s plan and will stick with Transit City. The public might love your plan but that is not the one that will be implemented.

And we've been through these circular debates with you before....

The plan's out. He still hasn't called. Not that I'm waiting.

I'd be willing to wager that the next mayor and council will be taking up TC and probably modifying it to an unrecognizable state if not shelving it altogether. The front-runner has already indicated his doubts in the plan. The other candidates coming forward have said the same. Giambrone is the only 100% pro-TC candidate. And unless the TTC improves miraculously in the next few months, I've probably got a better chance of being mayor than he does.

And if the public does support our plan, what makes you so sure the politicians who wan their votes won't look at implementing it? (or even parts of it...we don't really care if people pick and choose from our ideas).
 
Actually I could get a venue for SOS if needed!

I don't want your Dad's basement. If you can get a venue at Scarborough Civic Centre we'll talk.

And I want it broadcast on a major network. If you can get CTV, CBC Toronto, and Global to cover the debate, I'm in.
 
I don't want your Dad's basement. If you can get a venue at Scarborough Civic Centre we'll talk.

And I want it broadcast on a major network. If you can get CTV, CBC Toronto, and Global to cover the debate, I'm in.

I have real connections and I can definitely secure space and air time on a network
 
You have to call him out; therefore, you have to contact him first!

Juan, you're the one who said Steve thinks we're afraid to debate him. If that's the case, then he has to ask for one of SOS, not talk to himself on his blog. It's not up to SOS to try and debate an increasingly irrelevant activist.
 
Juan, you're the one who said Steve thinks we're afraid to debate him. If that's the case, then he has to ask for one of SOS, not talk to himself on his blog. It's not up to SOS to try and debate an increasingly irrelevant activist.

I did not say that. I said someone on Steve's site thinks you are scared to debate him. I think SOS can hold its ground during a debate with him and probably trip him up a bit.

I'll ask and see if he wants to debate with SOS. I am sure he would be open to it
 
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I think he just does not like to debate with people who would bash his charachter (i.e. calling him an irrelevant activist) versus his ideas. Stick to the facts, don't call him names, and I am sure he would welcome a debate.
 
You have to do the debate to demonstrate the force of your conviction. Maybe it won't change Steve's mind but it will show anyone interested that SOS can take on the ideas of the person who is essentially their only prominent adversary.
 
I did not say that. I said someone on Steve's site thinks you are scared to debate him. I think SOS can hold its ground during a debate with him and probably trip him up a bit.

I'll ask and see if he wants to debate with SOS. I am sure he would be open to it

I would like to open up a 1 on 1 dialogue with him first, before we decide to debate him. As a fellow planner, I'm sure Steve and I can make some valid points to eachother. I feel that turning it into a public debate will simply make it a show trial, and no real progress would be made with it (although it would be good publicity).
 
I think he just does not like to debate with people who would bash his charachter (i.e. calling him an irrelevant activist) versus his ideas. Stick to the facts, don't call him names, and I am sure he would welcome a debate.

I do agree with this. True debating is about attacking the person's positions and views, not the person themselves, their credentials, or their character.

I do not agree with Steve on the majority of his ideas, but I do recognize and respect his years of public service and his credentials.
 
That just isn't true. Two of the LRT lines that have been discussed in recent years were Yonge north from Finch and Eglinton to the BD subway near Don Mills. Steve didn't support either,and said they should be subway instead based on demand.

It's not the cost that's the defining issue. It's the demand. Why spend $ to build something more than is needed?

If you can demonstrate that BRT can meet the demand, and cost a lot less, then I see no reason why you wouldn't be heard.

When the left hand fights for LRT everywhere and the right hand fights for LRT everywhere except in, say, one spot, there's really no difference. The results are the same. The more LRT lines drawn on the map, the happier they are. "Give LRT a chance!" they say.

Demand is less important than cost, at least purportedly, but neither is as important as politicians putting lines wherever they want (which isn't new). If demand was the main issue, Finch East and Dufferin would be getting LRT lines (and maybe King would get something in a tunnel or downtown would get some one-way ROWs), but they're all slated to get nothing. What wouldn't be proposed is 3 lines to Malvern, all competing for the same limited group of riders. What happened to not building more than necessary? That tenet gets thrown out the window whenever a new LRT line is at stake.

It's not like we need 15 new subway lines...the DRL plus a few short extensions of existing lines, coupled with ongoing GO improvements, new Rocket service, a some queue jumps, POP/fare schemes, etc., would utterly transform transit in Toronto. Until those basics are in place, LRT is a sideshow. It costs a fortune and as proposed will offer few benefits for a corridor like Sheppard East.

I don't think BRT is worth building in most places and I've never said otherwise. If an infrastructural transit improvement is needed beyond basic bus tweaks like Rocket service + queue jumps, might as well build at least an LRT line, not bus-only roadways. Ignore Socialwoe/Dentrobate/Fresh Start/whatever other 6 names he's used.

Still, we know that simple Rocket-style service (hardly "BRT") would be more than sufficient for a place like Morningside or the SRT extension path, places where ridership will never be high or even moderate, and where ridership will likely drop dramatically in coming decades to perhaps a few hundred per hour as demographics shift and as competing lines are built. LRT in these places is simply obscene and everyone knows it.
 
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You have to call him out; therefore, you have to contact him first!

I see no need. If he wants one he'll come to us. All I see is you desperately trying to force a debate.

I have real connections and I can definitely secure space and air time on a network

I don't want TVO. I would want CityTV or better. With the whole debate televised. No 2 min news clips. And I would want it at the Scarborough Civic Centre. I would want Steve to address the community he so cavalierly dismisses.
 
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