Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
I need some clarification. Money already allocated to the SELRT is enough to move water mains and what else?
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saveoursubways (SOS)
- Thread starter kEiThZ
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I believe it's water mains and the grade separation for the Agincourt GO Station (which would have been needed anyway, SELRT was just an excuse to do it now).
nfitz
Superstar
And build an LRT?? Not sure I understand this question.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
^ They are asking, if cancelled right now what would actually be unrecoverable money, and that money would be the already contracted water main work and the Go separation. (though I did not know watermain work had begun in earnest)
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
thanks Gweed123...you answered my question.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Sheppard East LRT Overview (Jan 19, 2010)
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2010-01-19_overview.pdf
Construction Phasing:
Don Mills to Yorklands (2011-2013)
Yorklands to Birchmount (2012)
Birchmount to Progress (2009-2011)
Progress to Morningside (2012)
Morningside to Meadowvale (2011)
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2010-01-19_overview.pdf
Construction Phasing:
Don Mills to Yorklands (2011-2013)
Yorklands to Birchmount (2012)
Birchmount to Progress (2009-2011)
Progress to Morningside (2012)
Morningside to Meadowvale (2011)
victor
New Member
The Move Toronto plan is available for downloading from the SOS website.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
Just putting it out there, but instead of extending the Bloor-Danforth Line to STC, why not have a revitalized SRT act as a branch of an Eglintion ICTS (Skytrain), with modern cars and 80m platforms. I know it won't make the report or anything 'official' but I want to hear some pros and cons.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Won't get rid of the transfer for a lot of people and will provide no service to the good chunk of Eglinton that's past Kennedy station. It was a flaw with TC we didn't want to repeat.
kEiThZ
Superstar
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The usual group of snivelling trolls will respond to the SOS plan with the same moronic comments as always but you guys need to just ignore them and do whatever you want.
Well, to start, one con would be that that combined line would probably end up costing over ten billion dollars.
Another con is that very few people transfer from the SRT to the Eglinton bus (a few hundred maybe?), while tens of thousands transfer from the SRT to the subway.
Strike one and strike two. The Danforth line could be extended along Eglinton over to Kingston. Yeah, it might look good on paper to combine these 4 lines this way (or just Eglinton and the SRT) and it seems like it might for some unknown reason be a good idea, but there really aren't any pros other than "it is possible to combine these lines." It would be funny to build an underground Skytrain, though, since anything built on the central stretch of Eglinton would have to be underground.
This isn't true at all. Ridership has gone up maybe 10%, and only because the area has seen about 10,000 condo units built, UofT enrollment's exploded, the Harbourfront line's been extended to the CNE, etc. The area did not revitalize because of the Spadina streetcar. The Spadina streetcar's slight ridership growth since the early 90s has not remotely kept up with the area's growth. How can ridership be expected to grow when the service is so awful?
The SRT's problem was technology and design but the issue you have with the other two projects is based on whether or not they should exist at all. Sheppard exists because it was the only part of larger plans that was rescued when funding was cut. If other planned projects had been built as well, no one would be pointing to Sheppard in terms of "why was this the priority?" The Spadina extension exists because it's been on the books for a long time...however, the final stretch to Hwy 7 - and we're only talking about a measly 2km - exists because this was the *only* way to get the funding necessary to build it to York U. Either Toronto could build a 6km subway extension on its own or using whatever funding it could scrounge up, or get an 8km subway extension for free. Even when Toronto was to have split the funding with other levels of government, splitting a slightly longer extension's cost would have been cheaper than going it alone on a shorter one. It's not like the funding for the final 2km into Vaughan would have gone towards transit somewhere else...it was this or nothing. Same with Sheppard: that funding would not have gone towards other transit projects. Manufacturing companies and politicians trying to win elections didn't create Sheppard's crippling traffic or the forest of towers lining the corridor.
You are wrong about selling buses to the public. Rail bias is like god...you can believe in it but there's no way to prove it since there's no such thing as equivalent service and equivalent conditions and context. People do prefer faster travel and fewer transfers and comfier seats and so on, but there's no guarantee that the public will get that any of that with rail and no reason that some or all of it can't be done with buses. The Toronto public is already choosing to ride buses in absolutely enormous numbers. This isn't Detroit. When the TTC has talked about bus improvements or BRT in the past, they don't always mean going straight from regular bus service to whatever they have in Curitiba or bus-exclusive highways. "BRT" is really a spectrum and something like the 190 Rocket is already a minor form of BRT. Limited-stop buses with a few queue jumps, maybe the occasional bus-only lane, maybe a few short bus tunnels to bypass intersections, etc. The public would love to see these sorts of incremental bus improvements, especially since they don't cost the exorbitant billions that rail does. There can be tons of political fanfare for simple bus improvements, and since there's no downsides to them, there won't be any SRT-type backlash infecting transit and politics for decades. Bus improvements are a necessary part of any grand transit scheme and they can be accomplished without much political interference by being largely operational in nature, as opposed to capital-intensive, and since the scale of each project or route is quite small. The Transit City Bus Plan is a tepid and trivial afterthought, though, which is a shame. Even after a zillion dollars of ineffective LRT is built, most people will still be using buses to get around or get to the subway.
Of course, SOS isn't trying to sell a bus-based plan.
Well, to start, one con would be that that combined line would probably end up costing over ten billion dollars.
Another con is that very few people transfer from the SRT to the Eglinton bus (a few hundred maybe?), while tens of thousands transfer from the SRT to the subway.
Strike one and strike two. The Danforth line could be extended along Eglinton over to Kingston. Yeah, it might look good on paper to combine these 4 lines this way (or just Eglinton and the SRT) and it seems like it might for some unknown reason be a good idea, but there really aren't any pros other than "it is possible to combine these lines." It would be funny to build an underground Skytrain, though, since anything built on the central stretch of Eglinton would have to be underground.
This isn't true at all. Ridership has gone up maybe 10%, and only because the area has seen about 10,000 condo units built, UofT enrollment's exploded, the Harbourfront line's been extended to the CNE, etc. The area did not revitalize because of the Spadina streetcar. The Spadina streetcar's slight ridership growth since the early 90s has not remotely kept up with the area's growth. How can ridership be expected to grow when the service is so awful?
The SRT's problem was technology and design but the issue you have with the other two projects is based on whether or not they should exist at all. Sheppard exists because it was the only part of larger plans that was rescued when funding was cut. If other planned projects had been built as well, no one would be pointing to Sheppard in terms of "why was this the priority?" The Spadina extension exists because it's been on the books for a long time...however, the final stretch to Hwy 7 - and we're only talking about a measly 2km - exists because this was the *only* way to get the funding necessary to build it to York U. Either Toronto could build a 6km subway extension on its own or using whatever funding it could scrounge up, or get an 8km subway extension for free. Even when Toronto was to have split the funding with other levels of government, splitting a slightly longer extension's cost would have been cheaper than going it alone on a shorter one. It's not like the funding for the final 2km into Vaughan would have gone towards transit somewhere else...it was this or nothing. Same with Sheppard: that funding would not have gone towards other transit projects. Manufacturing companies and politicians trying to win elections didn't create Sheppard's crippling traffic or the forest of towers lining the corridor.
You are wrong about selling buses to the public. Rail bias is like god...you can believe in it but there's no way to prove it since there's no such thing as equivalent service and equivalent conditions and context. People do prefer faster travel and fewer transfers and comfier seats and so on, but there's no guarantee that the public will get that any of that with rail and no reason that some or all of it can't be done with buses. The Toronto public is already choosing to ride buses in absolutely enormous numbers. This isn't Detroit. When the TTC has talked about bus improvements or BRT in the past, they don't always mean going straight from regular bus service to whatever they have in Curitiba or bus-exclusive highways. "BRT" is really a spectrum and something like the 190 Rocket is already a minor form of BRT. Limited-stop buses with a few queue jumps, maybe the occasional bus-only lane, maybe a few short bus tunnels to bypass intersections, etc. The public would love to see these sorts of incremental bus improvements, especially since they don't cost the exorbitant billions that rail does. There can be tons of political fanfare for simple bus improvements, and since there's no downsides to them, there won't be any SRT-type backlash infecting transit and politics for decades. Bus improvements are a necessary part of any grand transit scheme and they can be accomplished without much political interference by being largely operational in nature, as opposed to capital-intensive, and since the scale of each project or route is quite small. The Transit City Bus Plan is a tepid and trivial afterthought, though, which is a shame. Even after a zillion dollars of ineffective LRT is built, most people will still be using buses to get around or get to the subway.
Of course, SOS isn't trying to sell a bus-based plan.
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Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
I quickly reviewed the report and I think SOS could have provided more details in the report such as the following:
1) Why is a B-D extension is needed to Sherway Gardens?
2) Actually mention the 2 town centres you want the Sheppard Subway to connect. Not everyone reading your plan would know what you are talking about.
3) How did you come up with estimated costs for the subway lines?
1) Why is a B-D extension is needed to Sherway Gardens?
2) Actually mention the 2 town centres you want the Sheppard Subway to connect. Not everyone reading your plan would know what you are talking about.
3) How did you come up with estimated costs for the subway lines?
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kEiThZ
Superstar
^ One piece at a time. We'll add details as we go along. The goal of this doc was to lay out the plan in a manner that the general public can understand. That's who the effort is aimed at, not transit enthusiasts.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
So there will be another version of the report for the transit enthusiasts down the road. Okay.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
I think we'll just do short notes on questions people have...like for example your question regarding costing.
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