saveoursubways (SOS)

[Dan416]

I find it odd that this thread has degenerated into talk about BRT. The thread title is Save Our Subways! Although in the same way the SELRT thread has degenerated into a subway vs LRT thread. And many other examples.

 

[gweed123]

I think some of the discussion of BRT is valid. It is an important part of the Move Toronto plan, and I think it deserves to be talked about just like the subway component. I understand that the type of BRT that Move Toronto proposes is a far cry from the flashiness of LRT down a grand boulevard, but in my opinion it is the option that provides the greatest increase in service and reliability with the lowest capital cost.

You don't need to spend billions to shave a minute or two off of someone's trip to the closest subway station, you just have to make it reliable. And the fact that Move Toronto puts many more subway stations a lot closer to where people live, spending hundreds of millions on LRT makes even less sense, considering they will not be used as long-haul routes.

 

[Fresh Start]

Um, what? The bus does not have to leave the HOV lane to pick up passengers on Don Mills...

Sounds quite obvious to me you have never used the Don Mills bus, or even seen it.

My apologies, I did misspeak. I'm so accustomed to the slowness of the 25 bus south of Overlea that I tend to fixate on those last few kilometres inwards to the subway and forget about the "speedy" part. What I meant to say was that because the HOV lanes are shared with vehicles trying to make right-turns off the roadway at lighted intersections and even worse from vehicles making right turns to and from the HOV lanes at private driveways this seriously slows down the overall efficiently of travel. This is why curbside ROWs are ineffectual RE: New York City where cab drivers use them as taxi stands, as do emergency vehicles. Lack of enforcement in the existing HOV lanes causes major delays at peak hour and remember that the curb lanes are designated for HOV’s during the weekday a.m. and p.m. peak periods ONLY, it's not a 24/7 transit ROW. An affordable road median partitioned off ROW, which Don Mills from Overlea to Sheppard can more than accomodate, would shave up to 15 minutes off commutes as stops could be spaced average every 500 m apart.

 

[Chuck]

There has to be a delicate balance though. Yes, smaller stations are cheaper, but there are certain stations along the line that need to be bigger. St. George is a perfect example of a station that, in light of the current passenger demands, was underbuilt. Determine which stations along the route will be stations that handle a large amount of people (transfer stations, stations that connect to major bus/BRT/LRT routes, etc), and build them a bit bigger. But keep the less-used local stations (like Glencairn, Rosedale, Runneymede, etc) smaller to save on cost.

The layout of St. George is very efficient, and capable of handling massive volumes of people. The problem there, as well as at Yonge-Bloor, is that there are more people trying to use the station than there are spots on the train. No amount of stairs, corridors, or concourse levels would reduce the number of displaced passengers waiting on the platform.

The funneling effect of having the entire city of Toronto pass through just 2 subway stations is the culprit. It means that more people use Bloor-Yonge station - 197,000 per day, than Times Square Station - 189,000 per day. Bloor-Yonge is served by 2 subway lines, Times Square is served by 5 or 12 depending on what definition you use.

 

[Fresh Start]

I don't consider streetcars a total failure. I mean, they're great for tourists if you have nowhere to be and don't mind plodding along.

Okay but this is an appeal to nostalgia. Tourist trams in the summer months are fine and dandy but they have no business being the circulatory system of the TTC, flowing out from the subway heart; nervous system to the brain. Why not just keep the streetcar network to where it already is with some minor expansion along the Central Waterfront, but explore instead the possibilities of BRT along suburban corridors not expectant to have greater than 5000 pphpd for several decades to come? Expanding the subway into more neighbourhoods is the only long-term solution, with short-distance bus feeders linking them to the greater area. Buses can more cheaply fill in the gaps than light-rail. It doesn't require a brand new fleet, technology, yards, prolonged constrcution period, grade-separated ROW or any of that. The York U busway, which even involved building new roadways, still only took 18 months to complete. The 512 St Clair re-construction fixing a preexisting ROW, took 4 years and all the good that did for St Clair's tourism trade when nearly 100 businesses had to close down from reduced foot-traffic.

I find it odd that this thread has degenerated into talk about BRT. The thread title is Save Our Subways! Although in the same way the SELRT thread has degenerated into a subway vs LRT thread. And many other examples.

We cannot save subways without first destroying a $12 billion bill to spend that money on light-rail instead. We cannot oppose the offical plan without taking some daring visionary risks which we can corroborate with case studies and stats from other cities where BRT+HRT networks have been proven successful. We cannot have both, we must choose and focus our efforts on that. BRT at least offers us a remarkably affordable alternative that would appease even more suburbanites than Transit City because instead of beefing up the rapid transit offered along 7 corridors we'd now be beefing it up to 15 or more. If $10 billion were to be spent on new subways and the latter $2 billion on BRT, the majority of the city and region benefits. If the TTC changed its focus to just boring the tunnels and let a consortium worry about station-building, you'd find that a higher yield of subway mileage could be built for less. Give EnCana a stake; RBC; CIBC; Alcan; Tim Horton's, other home-grown Forbes 1000 companies. We can achieve greater as a collective than the sum of our individual parts. Making the TTC plan and execute every aspect is what's garnerng us $304 million/km underground concrete bunkers through industrial parks, hydro fields, toll highways, apple orchards and cemeteries.

They've obviously lost their way. And maybe we have too if we're unwilling to make political compromises in order to achieve what we really want. It may be too late to stop SELRT east of Agincourt but peppering TPTB with critical assessments of their scheme and having a politician back our hardlines could do wonders in preventing the SRT revamp, Eglinton streetcar and not exploring a BRT option through the Finch Hydro corridor which would still maintain local transit along Finch proper from happening. LRT is not the problem, it's the groupthink that it and only it can work for Toronto going forward that is when steel tracks and overhead wires cost more than laying just plain old asphalt.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Remember when SaveOurSubways was KeithZ and Second in Pie and CC making generally nuanced and balanced arguments against TC lines and not Fresh Start making grandiose speeches about the wonders of THE BUS like he's Bill Pullman at the end of Independence Day and streetcars are those gross alien things?

 

[Toronto1]

Is the map that is currently posted on saveoursubways.ca out of date at this point?

 

[nfitz]

Lack of enforcement in the existing HOV lanes causes major delays at peak hour and remember that the curb lanes are designated for HOV’s during the weekday a.m. and p.m. peak periods ONLY, it's not a 24/7 transit ROW.

I find the HOV on Don Mills (at least) is fairly well respected, and does move quite well. Buses on that road with HOV don't get stuck in traffic the same way as they used to in the 1980s. And as for rush-hour only ... that's still 7 hours a day! Outside of those hours I find the bus is actually faster anyways, because there is less traffic, and less users. The one problem I've noticed is that the HOV hours on Pape are shorter than the rest of the route, and the bus really slows around 6 pm with all the parked cars.

 

[Fresh Start]

Remember when SaveOurSubways was KeithZ and Second in Pie and CC making generally nuanced and balanced arguments against TC lines and not Fresh Start making grandiose speeches about the wonders of THE BUS like he's Bill Pullman at the end of Independence Day and streetcars are those gross alien things?

My position has never wavered although I have come to accept some unavoidable realities going forth, and I never said that I speak on behalf of the group. Streetcars have their place admittedly; just not along key transit corridors like Eglinton, Sheppard East nor the path to SCC from Kennedy Stn. I'm just stepping up my A-game because the misconceptions the LRT advocates and pundits have been spewing all over the internet and the media unchecked for some years now, has got to be reigned in. No one else seems brave enough to rattle the cage, question authority; so I'm just doing my little bit to encourage readers of this forum to educate themselves. Analyse the TTC's track record with all three modes: streetcars, express bus routes and metro subways and then ask themselves which modes are most notorious for delays, which run more efficently, and how dedicated transit-only ROWs would the operation of said modes operate that much better for the least expenditure.

 

[MisterF]

The layout of St. George is very efficient, and capable of handling massive volumes of people. The problem there, as well as at Yonge-Bloor, is that there are more people trying to use the station than there are spots on the train. No amount of stairs, corridors, or concourse levels would reduce the number of displaced passengers waiting on the platform.

The funneling effect of having the entire city of Toronto pass through just 2 subway stations is the culprit. It means that more people use Bloor-Yonge station - 197,000 per day, than Times Square Station - 189,000 per day. Bloor-Yonge is served by 2 subway lines, Times Square is served by 5 or 12 depending on what definition you use.

There has to be a delicate balance though. Yes, smaller stations are cheaper, but there are certain stations along the line that need to be bigger. St. George is a perfect example of a station that, in light of the current passenger demands, was underbuilt. Determine which stations along the route will be stations that handle a large amount of people (transfer stations, stations that connect to major bus/BRT/LRT routes, etc), and build them a bit bigger. But keep the less-used local stations (like Glencairn, Rosedale, Runneymede, etc) smaller to save on cost.

Yep, Toronto tends to build huge lines in small numbers. A city like Madrid, on the other hand, builds many lines (12 at last count), with each one being much smaller. Most of their trains are much shorter than in Toronto, probably only a third of the length. Because of that stations are a lot smaller. Many of them don't have big mezzanines, and most have side platforms instead of centre platforms. But trains are very frequent, and the subway lines are absolutely everywhere so congestion is dispersed and the trains are busy but not super packed. The only really big stations are interchange stations, and even some of them are small. While Toronto may not need 12 subway lines, it would probably be better served with many lines built to a lower standard.

BTW, we tend to do the same thing with highways - huge rights of way with big medians, shoulders, and interchanges but we don't have very many of them.

 

[Dan416]

Yep, Toronto tends to build huge lines in small numbers. A city like Madrid, on the other hand, builds many lines (12 at last count), with each one being much smaller. Most of their trains are much shorter than in Toronto, probably only a third of the length. Because of that stations are a lot smaller. Many of them don't have big mezzanines, and most have side platforms instead of centre platforms. But trains are very frequent, and the subway lines are absolutely everywhere so congestion is dispersed and the trains are busy but not super packed. The only really big stations are interchange stations, and even some of them are small. While Toronto may not need 12 subway lines, it would probably be better served with many lines built to a lower standard.

BTW, we tend to do the same thing with highways - huge rights of way with big medians, shoulders, and interchanges but we don't have very many of them.

I think that's a very interesting observation. Which explains why we have monster stations in Vaughan and tiny stations downtown. North America has a bigger is better attitude. Our subways are big. Our GO trains are massive. Our highways are huge. At this point though it's kinda difficult to get the TTC to switch to smaller rolling stock when our trains our crowded. We'd first need to disperse the loads with more lines. But building more lines is impossible when there are so many anti-transit types who say subways are too expensive. And the way we're building them, they are.

 

[GraphicMatt]

My position has never wavered although I have come to accept some unavoidable realities going forth, and I never said that I speak on behalf of the group. Streetcars have their place admittedly; just not along key transit corridors like Eglinton, Sheppard East nor the path to SCC from Kennedy Stn. I'm just stepping up my A-game because the misconceptions the LRT advocates and pundits have been spewing all over the internet and the media unchecked for some years now, has got to be reigned in. No one else seems brave enough to rattle the cage, question authority; so I'm just doing my little bit to encourage readers of this forum to educate themselves. Analyse the TTC's track record with all three modes: streetcars, express bus routes and metro subways and then ask themselves which modes are most notorious for delays, which run more efficently, and how dedicated transit-only ROWs would the operation of said modes operate that much better for the least expenditure.

Most of what you're saying is irrelevant, because you're never going to sell the voting public on more buses as something to get excited about. Transit infrastructure with rails increases property values and gets voters fired up for candidates. It's why 'rapid transit through every ward' is such a critical part of Transit City, even if you'll disagree on the 'rapid' part.

In addition, basically concluding that the only mode of transit the TTC is capable of running well is subways is incredibly defeatist. And kind of wrong, considering that the TTC hasn't even done a great job of running the subway lately. Regardless of what shape current expansion and construction projects take, line mismanagement, customer service, etc. are separate issues that need to be addressed NOW.

 

[gweed123]

Most of what you're saying is irrelevant, because you're never going to sell the voting public on more buses as something to get excited about. Transit infrastructure with rails increases property values and gets voters fired up for candidates. It's why 'rapid transit through every ward' is such a critical part of Transit City, even if you'll disagree on the 'rapid' part.

In addition, basically concluding that the only mode of transit the TTC is capable of running well is subways is incredibly defeatist. And kind of wrong, considering that the TTC hasn't even done a great job of running the subway lately. Regardless of what shape current expansion and construction projects take, line mismanagement, customer service, etc. are separate issues that need to be addressed NOW.

Which is exactly why Move Toronto doesn't use BRT as the 'big sell', it uses subways. BRT is the secondary network, which is only really 'interesting' to people who choose to dig further. For the majority of people, it will be as simple as 'More subways for the same amount of money that we're paying now? I'm sold." We don't need to sell subways as a technology, people already know it and like it, and it a lot of cases, want more of it. Transit City is a much harder sell to Toronto than more subways will ever be.

 

[GTS]

I think the article in today's Toronto Star might be relevant to the Save Our Subway's thread. Adam Giambrone is set to announce his run in the upcoming mayoral race. I think a mayor such as Giambrone would see as much, if not more, investment in public transit then we saw under David Miller- who was also transit friendly. Giambrone is not only into transit and is a coucillor that takes many interests in what makes the riding that he is in tick. The reason that I know this is because I am friends with him on Facebook, anyone can be a friend of his (I think that this is a modern way in which he has been campaigning the last few years), and you will see how active he is on community events. Giambrone is young at 32, but has been active in his politacal party for many years. He also speaks more then one language which might help in the very multi-cultural community of Toronto.

The main reason that I would vote for the young Giambrone is that he is pro-transit, in fact I have seen him on a street car once when I was exploring my newly adopted city a few years ago. I also hope that Joe Mihevic, the TTC vice-chair becomes the chair of the TTC. I was at the TTC meeting, Giambrone was away on business, and Mihevic announced the TransitCity Plan. His enthusiasm was contagious, and I am sure he would also push for more subways as well as the streetcars and LRT that he promotes

I was hoping Giambrone was going to enter the race- I think if he was elected he might be able to convince the feds and province to invest in the transit infrastructure here in Toronto and that would spark similar investments all around the GTA as well. This could become a true transit oriented city under his leadership. Giambrone isn't perfect, no one is, but I think that transit investment would increase significantly if he were elected. I hope that the Bloor/Danforth line gets extended at both termini like the YUS subway line is getting. I strongly feel that the subway should get closer to Peel region, even more so then York Region.

 

[gweed123]

I think the article in today's Toronto Star might be relevant to the Save Our Subway's thread. Adam Giambrone is set to announce his run in the upcoming mayoral race. I think a mayor such as Giambrone would see as much, if not more, investment in public transit then we saw under David Miller- who was also transit friendly. Giambrone is not only into transit and is a coucillor that takes many interests in what makes the riding that he is in tick. The reason that I know this is because I am friends with him on Facebook, anyone can be a friend of his (I think that this is a modern way in which he has been campaigning the last few years), and you will see how active he is on community events. Giambrone is young at 32, but has been active in his politacal party for many years. He also speaks more then one language which might help in the very multi-cultural community of Toronto.

The main reason that I would vote for the young Giambrone is that he is pro-transit, in fact I have seen him on a street car once when I was exploring my newly adopted city a few years ago. I also hope that Joe Mihevic, the TTC vice-chair becomes the chair of the TTC. I was at the TTC meeting, Giambrone was away on business, and Mihevic announced the TransitCity Plan. His enthusiasm was contagious, and I am sure he would also push for more subways as well as the streetcars and LRT that he promotes

I was hoping Giambrone was going to enter the race- I think if he was elected he might be able to convince the feds and province to invest in the transit infrastructure here in Toronto and that would spark similar investments all around the GTA as well. This could become a true transit oriented city under his leadership. Giambrone isn't perfect, no one is, but I think that transit investment would increase significantly if he were elected. I hope that the Bloor/Danforth line gets extended at both termini like the YUS subway line is getting. I strongly feel that the subway should get closer to Peel region, even more so then York Region.

He's definetly one politician we will NOT be contacting. Trying to convert him from his LRT mindset would be like trying to convince a US Evangelical to go Muslim. It ain't gonna happen.

At this point I don't really think it's so much pro-transit vs anti-transit, because none of the major candidates are really anti-transit. The question is are they for the right transit solution for Toronto, and I don't think Giambrone is.