nfitz
Superstar
A true leader knows that there are always going to be a handful opposing even the most brilliant idea, and best thing to do is get the project done rather than waiting for years to discuss every detail to death.
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saveoursubways (SOS)
- Thread starter kEiThZ
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kettal
Banned
I'm sure he has time to make meetings with every nimby and whiny brat who wants a subway station at his doorstep.
GenerationW
Senior Member
I agree about the cackling part, but we have no idea whether or not they cooked it up (or most of it) alone in a room somewhere since TC is certainly a departure (some would say a radical one) from TTC plans immediately preceding TC.
Someone I know thinks Giambrone cooked it up while backpacking across Europe, but I don't want to be like NOW Weekly and out him for having a backpacking past.
GenerationW
Senior Member
I don't think they're afraid of anything now. Getting Sheppard funded and built first was a Machiavellian stroke IMO. It killed any subway expansion within Toronto for the immediate future, an unstated goal that only a fool would deny, and it received both provincial AND federal support, which allows them to claim it has widespread support. And, at a relatively cheap price, the feds get to brag that they are funding a local Toronto transit line (i.e. nothing to do with York Region).
The local left and the federal right scratched each others' backs and everyone got what they wanted.
rbt
Senior Member
Agreed. Typically they shoot for having an equal amount of yelling on the "not enough" side as the "too much" side.
Current transit expansion in Toronto is a direct result of the Board of Trade changing from the too much taxation to not enough transit AND too much taxation.
rbt
Senior Member
If you are a member of the SOS group, you might want to turn down the hyperbole. If you are not a member of the SOS group, the SOS group should make sure to make their spokesperson(s) clearly declared to ensure they do not get tainted by others on this board as this seems to be the primary discussion location (most visible at least).
The Spadina expansion, largest subway expansion by length in many decades, is under construction and being overseen by the people you claim to have killed subway expansion.
It is also difficult to argue that central Eglinton service will not be subway quality. A pair of gap trains which never leave the tunnel section and they have it pretty much covered. Gap trains are not unusual in Toronto; both lines have some.
The SOS group needs to beware of factually incorrect statements and statements which could be spun or purposefully misinterpreted into being factually incorrect. Be sure to acknowledge what is being done (don't show ignorance) and state clearly why it is not enough or a firm implementation.
I learned enough about politics to realize that I don't want a part of it. First step to being an effective movement is learning how the game is played. The internal knowledge about city workings is what gave Save or St. Clair a chance. Whether you agree with the movement or not, it took a lot of political will from current city council to proceed with the project. If you force council stand united behind Transit City today and there is a good chance they will not; particularly if there is an option #2 that may buy more votes.
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Very good points. Which is why I would like to stress that this is not a group page, this is a discussion forum. Ideas to bounce around, that in no way reflect the final, cohesive vision of SOS.
This is why I have been so insistant on getting a report finished before we present our ideas to the outside world (I don't really consider UT to be the outside world, sorry to dissapoint you all, haha). Once the report is finished, we can have a single unifying document, which contains all of our standpoints, suggestions, and opinions. If our ideas (and our group) will be rejected, I'd much rather have it be because someone rationally debated the points that we presented in our report and countered them, than someone read something that was posted on here by 1 person, assumed it was the group consensus, and based their perception of the group off of that.
FYI, this is why I decided to name the report 'Move Toronto', instead of just ' The Save Our Subways Plan', to get away from the perception that we're just a NIMBY group (actually, more precisely, a YIMBY group). It gives the perception that we're presenting alternatives (which we are), instead of just criticizing current plans.
The quote that was presented by the woman at Save Our Sheppard is valid to be criticized, because it was spoken directly to a media outlet, it wasn't taken out of context from a discussion board or anything.
Another FYI, once the report is done, it will be available on our website, and will also be posted in this forum. From there, it can be debated, accepted, or rejected on the part of non-SOS members.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
I do not represent SOS in making these comments:
You could not be more wrong about the Spadina/York extension. I have know/heard about Vaughan's wishes for a subway into it's borders since at least the early 2000's. Miller was elected in 2003 and was arguably less involved in transit planning at that time than he was in 2007 when the TC plan was announced. The York portion of the extension (to Steeles West) was approved in 2005 and Vaughan tacked on their plans shortly thereafter. To say that Miller had a direct hand in planning and building the Spadina-York extension is wrong.
GenerationW
Senior Member
I'm not a member (nor have I ever been a member) of SOS, and I'm sure they can overcome any effects my hyperbole might have.
I said the Sheppard LRT has effectively killed subway expansion within Toronto, meaning no York Region. So unless a miracle happens and the Miller-Giambrone administration proposes and approves something new in the next ten months, I think I'm safe at least until the next municipal election.
Only time will tell whether the underground portion is truly subway quality (I hope it will be), but since the TTC itself does not call it a subway, there is no argument: It's not a subway.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
No, he's too busy bringing a streetcar ROW to someone else's doorstep...a line to every ward just to say every ward has a line. Of course, the plan is so hideously expensive that it may never happen.
Also, check the meaning of NIMBY in a dictionary or something...you don't quite got it.
nfitz
Superstar
According to the Oxford Canadian:
I guess it doesn't apply to someone trying to stop a local development who lives in a different city, and isn't near the project.
I guess it doesn't apply to someone trying to stop a local development who lives in a different city, and isn't near the project.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The real reason it doesn't apply is because someone who supports radical change in the form of a project that is more expensive, more disruptive, and with more real estate/demographic consequences than what is currently proposed is not a NIMBY. Unless someone doesn't know what a NIMBY is, which seems to be the case with kettal, like a little kid who tries to make fun of someone but fails because he has no clue what the insults and swear words mean.
Dan416
Senior Member
I think SOS definitely needs to get in touch with SOS and coordinate and figure out if they're actually anti-transit or actually want improvement to transit (i.e. the Sheppard Subway extended to STC as they were promised).
It's a little amusing that their group has the same acronym as ours. Although that's to be expected since Save Our Subways was a play on Save Our St. Clair, and Save Our Sheppard is copying Save Our St. Clair directly.
But I'd like to know how kettal and Juan Lennon can claim the SELRT has support when there's groups like SOS and SOS that are ardently against it. And NIMBY is definitely not the word to describe SOS. Maybe SOS are nimby's, we don't know yet. But SOS is very, emphatically YIMBY.
It's a little amusing that their group has the same acronym as ours. Although that's to be expected since Save Our Subways was a play on Save Our St. Clair, and Save Our Sheppard is copying Save Our St. Clair directly.
But I'd like to know how kettal and Juan Lennon can claim the SELRT has support when there's groups like SOS and SOS that are ardently against it. And NIMBY is definitely not the word to describe SOS. Maybe SOS are nimby's, we don't know yet. But SOS is very, emphatically YIMBY.
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Fresh Start
Banned
I've never heard anyone influential other than Adam Giambrone defend the SELRT. Even Steve Munro's skeptical that it might turn into another 512 St Clair debacle.
I actually don't mind the St. Clair streetcar ROW, I think it's the right solution for a secondary corridor like St. Clair. In fact, I have no problems with LRT ROWs being implemented on secondary corridors throughout the city (Lawrence, York Mills, Vic Park, etc). But to implement it on a primary corridor where a different mode of transit was not only determined to be the right one, but was even partially built, makes little to no sense.
Giambrone wasn't even a fan of the DRL (and I'm pretty sure still isn't). The only reason he's "supporting" it now is because of the wave of public support around the project. He was very resistant to it at first, and I'm sure in private still is.
Let's face it, just because you received votes in an election does not give you the necessary qualifications to be a Transit Planner...
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