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saveoursubways (SOS)

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Kingston Road transit. Why all the complexity? Just have a continous line along all of KR, a through service from Highland Creek striaght into the downtown. Do you really think riders want to be dropped off at an arbitrary point like Victoria Park Stn, then have to commute westbound for another 40 minutes on the subway? I'd think not. Furthermore why have KR BRT route into both Victoria Park and Kennedy Stns? The time spent diverting off of KR to route into these subways would be better spent just continuing south along the corridor, going on to serve the Beaches, Leslieville and the Portlands before dropping off passengers in the downtown. Benefits: alleviating the Bloor-Danforth and B-Y interchange; and faster method overall for customers from eastern Scarborough (and 905 east) to get downtown.

Is the southern section of Kingston Rd. wide enough to accommodate bus lanes? I am not familiar with that street, but generally, that part of the city is not built with 6-lane streets in mind.

And then, how would the buses get downtown from Queen / Kingston? Via Eastern Ave, or via Lakeshore E / Gardiner? Both can be quite filled during the peak hours.
 
Is the southern section of Kingston Rd. wide enough to accommodate bus lanes? I am not familiar with that street, but generally, that part of the city is not built with 6-lane streets in mind.

And then, how would the buses get downtown from Queen / Kingston? Via Eastern Ave, or via Lakeshore E / Gardiner? Both can be quite filled during the peak hours.

Yes, you're right. The ROW in-between Queen/Eastern and Victoria Park would have to be shared through mixed traffic, but west along Eastern is entirely 6-laned and even room to expand it out further if necessary. As the 503 car would become defunct per this BRT implementation, I suppose that it'd be possible to segreagate the ROW whereby only transit buses can operate down the road median, reducing KR to one free lane per direction through the Upper Beaches stretch. Once downtown, the BRT routes counterclockwise via Richmond and Adelaide Streets to Bathurst and back again running closeby to existing station entrance points en route.
 
... but west along Eastern is entirely 6-laned and even room to expand it out further if necessary.
What? Your not thinking of Eastern ... it's two lanes plus a parking lane ... standard 20-metre cross-section, same as other downtown streets. It's not even 2 lanes plus parking over much of the length since the bike lanes went in.
 
For Kingston Road, I'd extend the Streetcar as LRT and then add the BRT. The Queen streetcar desperately needs to be LRT, and so Kingston Road could get that as an addition when Queen gets it's LRT. Most riders east of where the streetcar stops would probably be better off taking the subway, so there's no real inconvenience, in my opinion.
 
[*]Kingston Road transit. Why all the complexity? Just have a continous line along all of KR, a through service from Highland Creek striaght into the downtown. Do you really think riders want to be dropped off at an arbitrary point like Victoria Park Stn, then have to commute westbound for another 40 minutes on the subway? I'd think not. Furthermore why have KR BRT route into both Victoria Park and Kennedy Stns? The time spent diverting off of KR to route into these subways would be better spent just continuing south along the corridor, going on to serve the Beaches, Leslieville and the Portlands before dropping off passengers in the downtown. Benefits: alleviating the Bloor-Danforth and B-Y interchange; and faster method overall for customers from eastern Scarborough (and 905 east) to get downtown.

Yes, why all the complexity of routing BRT down Kingston to downtown when Rouge Hill and Guildwood stations are right next door.
 
Doesn't it just seem like this Transit City thing has gained to much momentum to even bother going back to square one?

And secondly, wouldn't adding new subway lines take another additonal 15 years of planning and construction?
 
Thoughts on LRT / BRT lines

1. Sheppard East: at this stage, no politician and no manager will take responsibility for canceling or delaying construction of that LRT line, until the alternative plan can be adopted and additional funding provided.

Surely you can eliminate SELRT entirely from the map of your proposals, if you feel it does not deserve funding. But in reality, if you plan gets traction, it will result in subway west of Agincourt and LRT east of it.

2. STC - Malvern corridor: light rail is reasonable there. The route will serve Centennial College, and will attract riders that use other bus routes today.

3. Ellesmere: not sure if this is a much better route than Sheppard E for higher-order transit. On one hand, Ellesmere has two significant trip generators: the hospital and UTSC. On the other hand, it is surrounded by ravines between Orton Park and the hospital, and between the hospital and UTSC. East of UTSC, it is backyards just like on Sheppard. Someone can buy property and re-develop backyards, but not ravines.

Continuing Durham's highway 2 BRT along Ellesmere towards STC might make sense - but then, won't the buses run faster on 401, even in mixed traffic?

4. Kingston Road transit: no point trying to send it downtown. It is hard to provide a ROW all the way, and even if it was possible, the trip would take more time than cutting to Danforth subway via Eglinton or via Danforth Rd. If continuous service along Kingston Rd. is desired, it should be an additional route, which shares ROW north of Danforth with the routes that connect to subway.
 
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Doesn't it just seem like this Transit City thing has gained to much momentum to even bother going back to square one?

And secondly, wouldn't adding new subway lines take another additonal 15 years of planning and construction?

The details and funding are vague for many projects at this point, so plans can be changed. Sheppard East is approaching the tipping point though.

But what's happening here is unavoidable because Transit City took many citizens by surprise, a clear result of technocratic top-down planning that didn't take interest in promoting discussion. The discussion will happen.
 
The details and funding are vague for many projects at this point, so plans can be changed. Sheppard East is approaching the tipping point though.

But what's happening here is unavoidable because Transit City took many citizens by surprise, a clear result of technocratic top-down planning that didn't take interest in promoting discussion. The discussion will happen.

Citizens? It took some officials at the city by surprise.

It's good that lines like Jane have been stalled, and hopefully it's not too late for Sheppard, which is a stupid waste of money.
 
Surely you can eliminate SELRT entirely from the map of your proposals, if you feel it does not deserve funding. But in reality, if you plan gets traction, it will result in subway west of Agincourt and LRT east of it.

Which is still unwarranted but I suppose that we'll take it.

3. Ellesmere: not sure if this is a much better route than Sheppard E for higher-order transit. On one hand, Ellesmere has two significant trip generators: the hospital and UTSC. On the other hand, it is surrounded by ravines between Orton Park and the hospital, and between the hospital and UTSC. East of UTSC, it is backyards just like on Sheppard. Someone can buy property and re-develop backyards, but not ravines.

Continuing Durham's highway 2 BRT along Ellesmere towards STC might make sense - but then, won't the buses run faster on 401, even in mixed traffic?

No, no. The entire corridor doesn't need BRT ROW, only the section from SCC to UTSC. Lots of demand and trip-generators in that short stretch. The connection to Kingston Rd would be via Military Trail and the Highland Creek Overpass.

4. Kingston Road transit: no point trying to send it downtown. It is hard to provide a ROW all the way, and even if it was possible, the trip would take more time than cutting to Danforth subway via Eglinton or via Danforth Rd. If continuous service along Kingston Rd. is desired, it should be an additional route, which shares ROW north of Danforth with the routes that connect to subway.

A continuous route along Kingston Road is desired. It shouldn't take one a total of 6 different bus routes to get from Highland Creek to the Beaches. And what is so special at Coxwell-Queen to just abandon riders there when the service can continue onwards into the inner-city? Even splitting the service just once messes with continuity and ergo adds wait-times onto a one-way trip. Case in point, how the splitting of the 501 is affecting through-commuters right now. I don't like the idea of sending KR BRT into Victoria Park Stn when existing travel patterns indicate those heading westbound along KR would want to continue towards the downtown via that corridor. It's a direct and natural channel inwards, that alleviates the B-Y interchange from reduced transferees off the Danforth Line onto Yonge heading south. At Cliffside Stn, per my vision, a grade-separated interchange between the Scarborough-Malvern BRT and Kingston-Ellesmere BRT would allow for a direct transfer to/from the Bloor-Danforth's Main Street Stn.

Nfitz's assertion that Eastern's potential is limited is untrue. Road designations can change at the drop of a hat, especially bike lanes. Like I said before, there's ample room with which to expand out the road width to eight-lanes as most adjoining properties on the south side are wanton brownstones far back from curbside. Downtown's Richmond-Adelaide ROW is simplified by the one-way aspect of those streets where the designated bus lanes occur at side-of-roadway as opposed to median.

And to Paleo, Rouge Hill GO is nowhere near KR and Guildwood is a 300 m trek inwards from Celeste. Is that supposed to be considered next door, especially for a corridor which runs on for over 17 kilometres through Toronto? We shouldn't be looking at inter-regional train services to do what local higher-order transit could.
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So anyway, I feel that it's high time for me to publish another map, since the imaginations here seem to be running wild. You guys may say that this veers a little too far from Transit City- but I'm sure not out to be some trans-wack scheme's doppelganger. The ideology behind the map is simple, utilize the corridors we've got in meaningful ways. The subway can't go everywhere but balancing it out with cheaper to implement, faster to become operational than LRT, BRTs, would really put the $12-$15 billion to good use. Next time I'll do the West End but at the moment I'm swamped with like three essays approaching deadline. So without further a do:

And gweed, I hope you're paying attention...
RapidTransitSolutionsPartI-theEastE.jpg
 
I do like some of the ideas you have on this map. Having said that, a few criticisms:

1) Scarborough-Malvern BRT: Most of it west of STC is not really needed. If the Scarborough RT stations along that rail corridor are barely used, why continue to service them with rapid transit (especially a line that nearly mirrors the B-D extension)? And the section south of Eglinton seems sort of redundant considering you have both the Kingston BRT and B-D subway a couple of blocks away. Is that much rapid transit really needed in that area?

2) Interlining the Eglinton subway and the DRL: Why? It makes any extensions in either direction (either up Don Mills or east on Eglinton) much more expensive to do, as it would require a complete redesign of the station and the tracks surrounding it.

3) Kingston BRT: The area south of Danforth and west of Victoria Park is filled with downtown-bound transit routes (mainly streetcar routes, and even an express bus route). Why spend millions adding another one that will be only marginally faster? Especially with the DRL operating, it seems sort of redundant (a DRL could mimick the entire Pape to downtown section of this). Dump the riders at Victoria Park and let them subway in. Also, between the beaches and the DVP, there is very little south of Eastern that is worth delivering rapid transit to. And everything north is already served by the Queen streetcar.

EDIT: I guess my point with the BRTs is that they are meant for short-haul trips to dump passengers onto higher capacity/speed modes of transit (ie subway). If you're developing a more extensive subway system, BRTs should be used mainly to dump passengers onto those subway routes, not be long-haul routes unto themselves. They should only be long-haul routes when they are outside the range where subway is reasonable (ie in the non-Toronto 905 area, BRTs into Durham, VIVA, etc).
 
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Nfitz's assertion that Eastern's potential is limited is untrue. Road designations can change at the drop of a hat, especially bike lanes. Like I said before, there's ample room with which to expand out the road width to eight-lanes as most adjoining properties on the south side are wanton brownstones far back from curbside.
Where can you get it to 8 lanes (other perhaps where it crosses the Don River)? It's a 20-metre cross-section! How could you get 8 lanes down here any more than down Yonge Street between Bloor and Queen? An 8-lane road would require 32-metres, and that's not even including curbs! A 4-lane road is typically about 16-metres. Throw in curb and sidewalk, and that's what you get in a 20-metre road.

Are you sure we are talking about the same road?
 
Amazing poster victor. Now if we can just decide on a map, we can move on to some actual advocacy work.
 
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