Rossi promises traffic tunnel

[W. K. Lis]

Either way, Jack Layton must be laughing himself silly. The NDP can go into the next federal election, and in Toronto campaign against Ignatieff using the resurrected Spadina Expressway of what Ignatieff Liberal's want to do to Toronto. I think Rossi just re-elected Olivia Chow - and will put some Liberal seats at risk. Maria Minna has been battling strong NDP challengers in Beaches-East York; the NDP can now raise the spectre of the Gardiner Expressway that would have decimated the riding in the next election. Mario Silva will now have to fight the spectre of a Spadina expressway slicing through his riding ... or an extended Black Creek Drive.

This is certainly an entertaining election.

You forgot that the NDP is supported by the CAW, Canadian Auto Workers. I think that means the workers who build cars. The same cars that could end up using Rossi's tunnel. The same cars that are the cause of most of the traffic congestion around the world. That's one way to cause internal fighting in the NDP.

 

[Electrify]

I've always thought of replacing our subway network with elevated monorails, since they would be far more scenic and drivers stuck in traffic could see them fly by.

Maybe I should run for mayor of Toronto?

 

[Chuck]

i wonder what ford's response to this is going to be?

also, a real nightmarish situation would be one where all the serious candidates start focusing their campaigns on such an initiative as rossi's because they believe that highway building is the prevailing attitude of toronto voters. we could be launched back to a 60's era mentality of urban planning.

The 60s were a defining decade for Toronto. We experienced massive growth in the subway system, major development of the regional highway system, and the inception of GO transit. If the next decade saw the same investment as in the 60s in the same respective areas, Toronto would be a much better city by 2020!

 

[Blovertis]

i wonder what ford's response to this is going to be?

Ford can hit this one out of the park by (correctly) pointing out that it would be a complete waste of money. In the process, as has been pointed out, he'll come off as reasonable and level-headed. Yes, he's pro-car but his brand is all about putting taxpayers' dollars to good use.

 

[ssiguy2]

This may end up HELPING Ford. Center-right voters may have gone to Rocco but will flee when looking at this proposal. Why Ford? Because he supports roadways and is on the "stop the war on cars" but even he would not come up with such a stupid idea. He may secretly like the idea but being a hard line low tax, fiscal restraint kinda guy, would state upfront that is outrageously expensive idea and a massive waste of funds. It would almost make Ford look more balanced as he would be able to stop the war on cars but not totally so which could make him look like he has a balanced approach. He could state that he supports better roads but one's that maintain the community and ways that are affordable.
I don't think this will hurt Ford at all. Also it means Rocco will have to withdraw and due to being right/centre-right most of his vote would go to Ford while the centre/centre-left vote will be split by Pantelone and Smitherman. I Think Ford is jumping for joy and for good reason.

 

[nfitz]

Eglinton to the Gardiner is around 7 KM... there's no way that would cost $30-40 billion...lol

It's about 8 km. The length of tunnel is about the same as the Boston big dig. They started digging about 20 years ago, and back then, it cost US$14 billion, or about CAN$20 billion back then. In 20 years, construction costs for highways and subways have about doubled ... if not more. For example, we started the Sheppard subway in 1996 (only 14 years ago), and it cost about $160 million per kilometre, and now we are looking at about $300 million per kilometre.

Rossi is talking about a 2014 construction start ... it's not hard to get to $40 billion. Perhaps he will get some extreme savings and hit $30 billion. Anything less than $20 billion is hard to imagine.

And yet Rossi has mentioned it could be done for as cheap per mile as $105 million per kilometre. Just a bit more than it costs for LRT down Sheppard in Scarborough.

Deception on such magnitude is absolutely stunning. Is he violating any election laws by saying something so absurd?

 

[waterloowarrior]

It's about 8 km. The length of tunnel is about the same as the Boston big dig. They started digging about 20 years ago, and back then, it cost US$14 billion, or about CAN$20 billion back then. In 20 years, construction costs for highways and subways have about doubled ... if not more. For example, we started the Sheppard subway in 1996 (only 14 years ago), and it cost about $160 million per kilometre, and now we are looking at about $300 million per kilometre.

Rossi is talking about a 2014 construction start ... it's not hard to get to $40 billion. Perhaps he will get some extreme savings and hit $30 billion. Anything less than $20 billion is hard to imagine.

And yet Rossi has mentioned it could be done for as cheap per mile as $105 million per kilometre. Just a bit more than it costs for LRT down Sheppard in Scarborough.

Deception on such magnitude is absolutely stunning. Is he violating any election laws by saying something so absurd?

Except that his proposal is nothing like the Big Dig... think Paris A-86 west tunnel ($2.95 billion CAD, 7.5 KM), CLEM7 in Brisbane ($3.07 billion CAD, 6.8 KM), even the proposed Förbifart Stockholm (17 KM, $3.96 billion).... etc.

Not saying it's a good or a bad idea, just that it's not a $30-40 billion idea.

 

[valkoholic]

Except that his proposal is nothing like the Big Dig... think Paris A-86 west tunnel ($2.95 billion CAD, 7.5 KM), CLEM7 in Brisbane ($3.07 billion CAD, 6.8 KM), even the proposed Förbifart Stockholm (17 KM, $3.96 billion).... etc.

Not saying it's a good or a bad idea, just that it's not a $30-40 billion idea.

Agreed.

Madrid is doing the same kind of project now too. I guess we only admire Madrid when it builds subways.

 

[nfitz]

Except that his proposal is nothing like the Big Dig... think Paris A-86 west tunnel ($2.95 billion CAD, 7.5 KM), CLEM7 in Brisbane ($3.07 billion CAD, 6.8 KM), even the proposed Förbifart Stockholm (17 KM, $3.96 billion).... etc.

I'm not familiar with the conditions in Stockholm. The other two tunnels are both primarily in bedrock. The Paris highway is primarily in countryside, and the Brisbane example is very urban, quickly climbing under houses and streets. We just can't do this easily in Toronto We don't have the shallow bedrock like Brisbane, Paris, or Montreal. We have a lot of sands and other unconsolidated material. You'd have to go very deep to not endanger adjacent structures. If you went down the middle of the road, you'd likely have to do cut-and-cover to avoid damage. It would cost a fortune to achieve the criteria that Rossi has set that the "Tunnel will not disrupt a single neighbourhood, street or family home."

Not saying it's a good or a bad idea, just that it's not a $30-40 billion idea.

This type of construction in that area can not be achieved as cheaply as seen in other locations with very different geology.

Got any examples from Mexico City? I'm completely ignorant of what they are doing with highways there ... but that might be more comparable - though obviously construction costs will be lower in a developing economy.

Perhaps there are savings compared to Boston - after all we are probably not looking at a 10 lane highway. But we are more likely looking at tens of billions, than Rossi's bizarre estimate of $840 million ... Brisbane is perhaps most comparable, and that's about 4 times more expensive than what Rossi has estimated, in much easier geological conditions.

 

[hbl33]

Another politics as usual. Toronto's mayoral showdown come down to Smitherman, Ford and Pantalone.

Should any one of the wins mayoral election, I wouldn't be surprised if Loco Rossi [no pun intended] fails to carry out any subway plans while selling most of Toronto's assets; Frivolous George tops the media chart with 2nd e-health scandal;
or Ford goes nutjob resurrecting long-extinct highway projects; or Pantless Joe gets hit in the face with another delay and gets barely half of "his" Promised Land (TC) done in time (2020?!!?) Only Sarah Thomson makes sense in theory, though in reality faces innumerable amount of questions.

That said, what was the estimated cost of burying the section of Gardiner in downtown?
How much would Transit City cost if all of its plans are fully realized (assumed that no changes were made as it did by metrolinx/provincial gov.t)? +$40Bil?

 

[Edward]

Perhaps there are savings compared to Boston - after all we are probably not looking at a 10 lane highway

In Boston the tunnel was built beneath an existing elevated freeway and right next to the ocean. Much more expensive to do that.

 

[hbl33]

This type of construction in that area can not be achieved as cheaply as seen in other locations with very different geology.

Got any examples from Mexico City? I'm completely ignorant of what they are doing with highways there ... but that might be more comparable - though obviously construction costs will be lower in a developing economy.

Perhaps there are savings compared to Boston - after all we are probably not looking at a 10 lane highway. But we are more likely looking at tens of billions, than Rossi's bizarre estimate of $840 million ... Brisbane is perhaps most comparable, and that's about 4 times more expensive than what Rossi has estimated, in much easier geological conditions.

Pardon my ignorance, but just how would $30~$40Bil would be spent solely on highways? EA? Hiring contractors? Deploying construction workers and dealing with their wage/salary? Tunnel-boring machines? Cost of expropriation and restitution? Traffic costs? I'd bet half of all those cost would be spend on non-construction costs!

 

[Haljackey]

Perhaps there are savings compared to Boston - after all we are probably not looking at a 10 lane highway

In Boston the tunnel was built beneath an existing elevated freeway and right next to the ocean. Much more expensive to do that.

To avoid having the thing congested during rush hours, you probably are looking at a 10 lane highway. Just look at the DVP, it's 6 lanes and it's jam packed even outside of rush hour. The Allen tunnel extension will need to be at least 6 lanes plus HOV lanes, preferably 8 or even 10.

But again I doubt this will ever happen so there's no real point in discussing it. Just put the money (where's it coming from again?) into subways, burying the Gardiner and whatnot.

 

[Electrify]

Don't know about the others, but this tunnel would have to contend with the subway, long stretches of high density residential and commercial, and an interchange with the Gardiner which would be a marvel of modern engineering. I cannot see this thing costing any less than tens of billions of dollars.

 

[TOareaFan]

It never gets built.

The Rossi cost estimate is, by my guess, intentionally low. If he ever got elected the most he does it get the thing actually costed out. Let's say, for fun, the cost estimate is $3.36B......he makes a speach saying that "new and fuller information has show the previous $840mil estimate to be drastically understated. Given the cost is now 4 times our estimate, it does not seem prudent to proceed with this project at this time"

Rossi's campaign is on its last legs, this is his "Doug Flutie throws into the marching band" last manouver....if it gets him momentum he will keep going....if not, he quits....but this never gets built.