Rosedale: Should it be closed?

[EFSF Jaburo]

For those of us who use the YUS line on a regular basis, you might notice that at any given time, Rosedale's platforms are vastly underused compared to most other stations on the line (Summerhill is a close 2nd)

Some look at the surrounding neighbourhood reveals why ridership is so low.


Using google earth. Station is circled in red.
Rosedale is a high income, low density neighbourhood which is a textbook 1-2 punch against high ridership.

And its only 600m to Bloor station - which is a 6 minute walk

So why is there even a station here? Personally, I think it's about time for it be closed in order to save costs and reduce trip time in and out of downtown

 

[TTC12]

Umm you never know, ridership can go up, and the station may be needed in the future, it might cost a lot of money to re-open if necessary... So its fine as it is. I mean less people use summerhill, ellesmere and Bessarion i believe.

 

[newuser2k9]

It gets a daily ridership of about 7000-8000 (according to wikipedia). There are many more underused lines in the system. We shouldn't be thinking of cutting service.

A 6 minute walk, really? Do you think anyone who uses the station currently would use the line when there are an additional 6 minutes (in ideal conditions) added to their commute. I certainly wouldn't. By closing the station you lose around 3 million trips a year in revenue, and for what benefit? I'm sure the operating costs are lower for the station, and the TTC, being as it is, will want to hold on to as much profit as possible.

EDIT: That said, it probably would be good to build a development ontop of the current traffic circle. Selling part of the property would net the TTC some cash, and increase station ridership.

 

[kettal]

It actually serves an important service, by taking foot traffic away from Yonge Bloor station. If it was to close, these people would otherwise be walking to Bloor, a station which cannot handle any more people.

If anything, I think Rosedale station needs to be made more attractive to walk-in riders, so that it will be used instead of Bloor station in some cases.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Just south of the Rosedale station, you have a Canadian Tire store, the Toronto Reference Library, and Yorkville. Coming down from the north, one can avoid the crowds at Bloor by getting off early.

 

[PukeGreen]

If they were planning to build this line now, I'd say they should reconsider the exact stop locations based on density. But now that the Rosedale station exists, it seems foolish to shut it down when every train passes through it anyway. The train only stops for a few moments, and I'm sure it relieves some foot traffic from the always-packed Bloor station. I don't live or work anywhere near Rosedale but I still use that station a few times a year to access businesses and restaurants on Yonge. We need more transit access, not less.

 

[reaperexpress]

The only station that I would advocate shutting down is Glencairn. This is largely to speed up service on the Spadina line to increase its effectiveness as a diversion from the Yonge line. Since the Yonge line is much faster than the Spadina line north of Eglinton, riders between the two lines tend to chose the Yonge line.

Removing Glencairn would allow trains to run at their top speed for longer. Trains don't accelerate that quickly from 0-80. With the current spacing, by the time trains get up to speed, they have to start slowing down for the next station.

Trains often stop at Glencairn, and no one gets on or off.

Just south of the Rosedale station, you have a Canadian Tire store, the Toronto Reference Library, and Yorkville. Coming down from the north, one can avoid the crowds at Bloor by getting off early.

I can't believe that I never thought of that. I hate using Bloor-Yonge because it's so confusing and crowded. I will definitely try Rosedale next time I go to Toronto Reference Library.

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

Umm you never know, ridership can go up, and the station may be needed in the future, it might cost a lot of money to re-open if necessary... So its fine as it is. I mean less people use summerhill, ellesmere and Bessarion i believe.

There are no major developments around the station unlike Bessarion- which has concord park place to guarantee a steady ridership. I'm actually surprised to see that summerhill has lower ridership. Riding the yonge line every week day, I can tell you this is not true

It gets a daily ridership of about 7000-8000 (according to wikipedia). There are many more underused lines in the system. We shouldn't be thinking of cutting service.

A 6 minute walk, really? Do you think anyone who uses the station currently would use the line when there are an additional 6 minutes (in ideal conditions) added to their commute. I certainly wouldn't. By closing the station you lose around 3 million trips a year in revenue, and for what benefit? I'm sure the operating costs are lower for the station, and the TTC, being as it is, will want to hold on to as much profit as possible.

EDIT: That said, it probably would be good to build a development ontop of the current traffic circle. Selling part of the property would net the TTC some cash, and increase station ridership.

3 million trips ... really? I would take the wiki stats with a grain of salt. It looks inflated to me and remember that not all the riders will just stop using the TTC because they mothballed the station. I believe a majority will walk 6 mins (which is a very acceptable walking distance) to Bloor. Most trips are to downtown anyways so that 6 minutes isn't a complete waste either
But I like the 2nd suggestion.

Just south of the Rosedale station, you have a Canadian Tire store, the Toronto Reference Library, and Yorkville. Coming down from the north, one can avoid the crowds at Bloor by getting off early.

I hardly think the canadian tire store adds much to ridership. the TRF is closer to bloor anyways


There seems to be a general consensus: Rosedale should be kept as is since it was built in the past. But if it were to be built again, ttc should reconsider the location (possibly merge summerhill / rosedale altogether)

ps. what about castle Castle Frank? Another prime candidate for mothballing.

 

[wagthedog]

even if the residents don't use it much they won't appreciate a closure because of what it could do to their land values.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There seems to be a general consensus: Rosedale should be kept as is since it was built in the past. But if it were to be built again, ttc should reconsider the location (possibly merge summerhill / rosedale altogether)

Well, that's a very productive consensus. I suggest you write a lengthy letter to the TTC requesting that, should the Yonge line ever be totally destroyed and rebuilt, Rosedale and Summerhill should be merged altogether. May I also suggest a memo via seance to Isaac Newton requesting a change in the gravitational constant?

STAN: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.
REG: What?!
LORETTA: It's my right as a man.
JUDITH: Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
LORETTA: I want to have babies.
REG: You want to have babies?!
LORETTA: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
REG: But... you can't have babies.
LORETTA: Don't you oppress me.
REG: I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb! Where's the foetus going to gestate?! You going to keep it in a box?!
LORETTA: *crying*
JUDITH: Here! I-- I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans', but that he can have the right to have babies.
FRANCIS: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister. Sorry.
REG: What's the point?
FRANCIS: What?
REG: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can't have babies?!
FRANCIS: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
REG: Symbolic of his struggle against reality.

 

[Platform 27]

The wikipedia numbers are from a TTC report at the bottom of this page. They're as legit as you're going to get. And, per your observations of more people getting off at Summerhill than Rosedale, I remind you of that old saying that the plural of anecdotes is not data.

Selecting ideal station spacing is actually a really weird art. Even if you take a utilitarian approach that the system should be built in such a fashion as to maximize ridership, because people don't operate wholly rationally and with a full suite of information, it doesn't guarantee you can predict it based purely on density maps and the like.

Yes, on a vague theoretical level, fewer people will think of the subway as worthwhile if they think of it as taking 9 seconds longer to go from point A to point B than otherwise.

But fewer people will think of the subway as a worthwhile option if they know, by experience, that it may be difficult to get to a location along the line on account of wide station spacing.

For example, if I see an address on Yonge south of Eglinton, I know that I can get there on the subway. That's because I know the network there meets a bare minimum in terms of stop density that wherever it is, I'm not likely to, say, freeze, walking the last part of the way there. Because of the overall quality of the network, I'm more likely to choose transit on the whole.

 

[Dan416]

If anything, are there any streets on the northern Yonge line that need a subway station added?

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

even if the residents don't use it much they won't appreciate a closure because of what it could do to their land values.

I think this is a major factor that willl prevent Rosedale from being closed down

Well, that's a very productive consensus. I suggest you write a lengthy letter to the TTC requesting that, should the Yonge line ever be totally destroyed and rebuilt, Rosedale and Summerhill should be merged altogether. May I also suggest a memo via seance to Isaac Newton requesting a change in the gravitational constant?
[/I]

I didn't say I disagreed with the consensus or anything but your overreaction makes you look like a nutjob

If anything, are there any streets on the northern Yonge line that need a subway station added?

oh great! this will reduce the time it gets to downtown from Finch station (and any station that might be added in future expansions). In fact why not make the whole line like bloor subway and place stations 500m apart

TTC has made it hard enough for 905'ers by removing free parking for metropass holders and now this?

 

[jwill]

"TTC has made it hard enough for 905'ers by removing free parking for metropass holders and now this?"

The TTC has no responsibility to 905 riders. If removing free parking for 905ers allows for more service in 416, then thats what the TTC should have done.

Back on topic: I think Rosedale Stn will take on more importance as development in Yorkville continues to expand to the north.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I didn't say I disagreed with the consensus or anything but your overreaction makes you look like a nutjob

I know you disagree with the consensus...you made the thread.

Rosedale won't be closed because doing so would be incredibly stupid. High income neighbourhoods actually generate lots of subway trips, from the convenience of a direct trip from mansions to Bay Street jobs, to the kids that go private schools invariably not within walking distance, to the mobs of nannies and maids and so on that have reverse trip patterns. The area around Rosedale is not low-density, by the way.

Also, look into a sense of humour: they come with good financing and warranty packages nowadays.