Rob Ford's Toronto

[jje1000]

Ppl forget that much of "Ford Nation" infact is made up of small (and medium and large) business people. I know one of the people that helped raise funds for his campaign--you'd be surprised who these people are. They continue to support him, not because who he is but rather who he represents--aka business class ppl.

Am I really fond of these biz class ppl? No.

The question that these business class people should be asking is: "Has Rob Ford done anything to improve my business? Has he made it easier and more efficient to do business in Toronto?"

Outside of plastic bag manufacturers, the answer would be somewhat muted. Ford has really done very little to improve the city's competitiveness. What initiatives has he taken to reduce bureaucracy and increase transparency and efficiency in government?

Most peoples contributions to this thread range from reasoned disappointment to irrational rage and hatred directed towards Mayor Ford, mainly I think, because he is not only not like them but often diametrically opposed to their opinions on issues.

Those against whom they rail in their derision of “Ford Nation” are only more determined than ever to support the Mayor because they are not like those who are so much better informed and not shy about advertising their supposed superiority. Declaring people to be idiots is not a good recruiting strategy.

Mayor Ford's opponents would be well advised to call off the huff and puff and outrage to concentrate on recruiting a new candidate who shares their vision of the City of Toronto.

Why can't both happen? The Fords already do the same thing. They declare themselves the superior candidates in running and also constantly smear others in their goal of creating a toxic political environment. It's hypocritical to say that he should be allowed to proceed unhindered in his 24-7, 365-days-a-year campaigning while others should simply focus on one thing. However, what Ford opponents should be doing really, is not attacking the people who vote for him, but Ford's platform and actions.

You should take a look at this to see what's happening. Granted, Doug is the worst of the two, but this symbolizes Ford's four years more than anything else.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/2...n-toronto-councillors-doug-ford-jaye-robinson

 

[typezed]

Rob Ford is the mayor, not some imaginary alternative. Smitherman or Pantelone or Olivia Chow aren't perfect candidates* - very few politicians are - but they are all capable of working within the system to at least attempt to advance our society. Rob Ford isn't. He's nothing but a clot in the arteries, saying no is all he knows how to do. He has achieved very little. About the only thing I'd give his administration credit for is the union settlement, and for that I'd like to give equal blame to the unions, who when dealing with someone wanting to treat them fairly (Miller) pushed him to the wall, and who when confronted with someone willing to lay waste to the city to do battle with them (Ford) capitulated. The Ford administration's win on this also has to be measured against his unwillingness to do anything but lap at the tingly bits of well compensated male dominated authoritarian units of the city workforce like Police and Fire.

Rob Ford is unfit for the office of mayor of the biggest city in the country. He has lost support of council, and his own office is falling apart due to resignations. Those are happening in part because he may be involved in criminal activity. Sure I don't like him because he's ugly, fat, and dull-witted. But those aren't the reasons I believe he is unfit for the position he holds. I believe he is unfit to be mayor because he is unable to work with others, because he is unable to see or understand any point of view but his own, because he is lazy and probably derelict in his work performance, because he advances slogans and myths rather than ideas and accomplishments, because he shows very little interest or appreciation for the city that he leads. People sometimes are over sensitive or offended for public display on issues of identity politics, they like to toss homophobe and racist labels about, but in this case those accusations, while maybe strong, don't rise from imagined slights. Due to his fallow imagination and slow curiosity, he does seem at least a decade behind the times in his appreciation for the contributions of diverse communities. I also find this unsuitable in a leader. People who want to endorse Rob Ford as a leader of the city need to show how he's moving the city ahead despite an inability to show up for work, despite failing to communicate policy, despite his lack of vision for the city, despite being unable to hold together a stable office, despite his extra-curricular associations with shady characters. Get past the fact that I find him fat and ugly. You probably think him fat and ugly too, and you were willing to vote for him. I could do the same for someone equally fat and ugly if they weren't so overwhelmingly unsuitable in their beliefs, attitudes and work habits.

*(My preference right now is for Karen Stintz, also not a perfect candidate, or some yet unknown centrist from outside the present council or government anywhere.)

 

[nfitz]

I'm not saying that anyone who dislikes Ford is unreasonable or blind. In particular, I like Edward Keenan's column in The Grid: he offers some thoughtful and nuanced criticisms of Ford. However, it bothers me whenever I see Ford Nation characterized as stupid by the same people whose criticism of him is "hes a fat homophobic racist facist bigot fat fuck!!!!"

A little extreme, but is anyone going to argue he's not fat? Is anybody bigoted enough to say he isn't a homophobic bigot after his negative comments about same-sex marriage? I don't buy the racist stuff myself. Unlike his homophobic bigotry Ford frequently denies this with plausible evidence. And facist? Really? I'm not sure I've ever seen that claim.

Still, I don't think those that dislike Ford are that concerned about most of this. Surely that the guy appears to be of below average intelligence, has told many lies, and has refused to come clean on his addiction problems are bigger issues.

So any news? I popped in for the first time for the week, and there seems to be over 20 pages of comments, but little content? I jumped to the last couple of pages.

 

[adma]

Ppl forget that much of "Ford Nation" infact is made up of small (and medium and large) business people. I know one of the people that helped raise funds for his campaign--you'd be surprised who these people are. They continue to support him, not because who he is but rather who he represents--aka business class ppl.

Am I really fond of these biz class ppl? No.

And if we may transcribe things from the aesthetic-judgment side of UT, they'd be perplexed at the knocks EIFS recladdings get around this joint; after all, to them, said recladdings really are an improvement on the tired old premises they had to deal with...

 

[OSS 117]

Most peoples contributions to this thread range from reasoned disappointment to irrational rage and hatred directed towards Mayor Ford, mainly I think, because he is not only not like them but often diametrically opposed to their opinions on issues.

Those against whom they rail in their derision of “Ford Nation†are only more determined than ever to support the Mayor because they are not like those who are so much better informed and not shy about advertising their supposed superiority. Declaring people to be idiots is not a good recruiting strategy.

Mayor Ford's opponents would be well advised to call off the huff and puff and outrage to concentrate on recruiting a new candidate who shares their vision of the City of Toronto.

I voted for Mayor Ford and may do so again if a more qualified candidate doesn't surface, your task is not to vilify the Mayor but to replace him with a better candidate. Smitherman, Pantalone et al are not that candidate.

Any of the candidates you mentioned is a better option for mayor than Ford, in that they seem to be fully cognizant adults. Most people tend to tip-toe around the issue, but has anyone but me thought that Ford might be slightly mentally challenged? Not much, but a bit? It really doesn't seem to me that he possesses the intellectual or emotional capacity of an average adult. There's just something....off.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

There's no reasonable debate on either side, and ThinkRicky's post is pretty much proof of that. While there are plenty of people who support Ford for poor reasons, there are equally as many who dislike Ford for poor or imaginary reasons (homophobe, racist, he's fat, he's red, never had a job, runs a propaganda machine, etc, etc). Most of the criticism that gets flung at him is baseless or irrelevant: he's a homophobe because he said something statistically true, he's a vandalizer because he put magnets on cars, etc.

That's all just icing on the cake. He's a bad Mayor, a poor leader, a divider - as documented ad nauseam here in the past year and a half.

Most peoples contributions to this thread range from reasoned disappointment to irrational rage and hatred directed towards Mayor Ford, mainly I think, because he is not only not like them but often diametrically opposed to their opinions on issues.

Not true. Yes, some blindly rant and rave about Ford but most backup their anger or rants with those annoying things called facts.

 

[CowboyLogic]

I am very curious about how you can justify saying Ford isnt at the very least a homophobic.

I went through this on this thread a week or two ago. He's never said anything explicitly homophobic (barring the "Trudeau is a fag" line, which may or may not be true due to the conflicting reports from Gawker and the Star). "Homophobe" is bandied about in regard to Ford, but I haven't seen a compelling argument for it.

Is he homophobic? I don't know. I'm not saying he isn't, just that, so far, there hasn't been any compelling proof showing him to be homophobic.

-I don't recall seriously objecting to his size or weight, although I think the "he's a fat fuck" sentiment probably comes up so often because he looks exactly like the entitled richboy "businessman" fatcat that he is. The guy looks like a cartoon character and when combined with his rediculous behaviour for a mayor, it doesn't do much for his image.

-When the mayor of Toronto chooses to fuck off to his cottage (or whatever) instead of showing his face at Pride, it sends a message, and anybody with access to youtube knows he's made racist comments before. Oh, also:

“I don’t understand. Number one, I don’t understand a transgender. I don’t understand. Is it a guy dressed up like a girl, or a girl dressed up like a guy? And we’re funding this for – I don’t know, what does it say here – we’re giving them $3,210?” -On city funding for LGBTQ programs, June 14, 2005

“If you are not doing needles and you are not gay, you wouldn’t get AIDS probably. That’s the bottom line.... How are women getting it? Maybe they are sleeping with bisexual men.” -June 29, 2006

Maybe homophobe isn't the right word? I don't know. Stupid Insulting Ignorant Asshole at the very least, is surely still an accurate discriptor. These are unacceptable remarks for a public servant to be making in Canada in 2013. I don't mind telling you that I feel completely justified in looking down my nose at anyone dispicable enough to vote for a man that thinks and says things like that.

-I said that he's never held down a job that wasn't working for his rich politically connected daddy. I think that's worse than having never held down a job.

-I never said he runs a propaganda machine, although technically I suppose his radio show could qualify as propaganda since he uses it as a platform to bullshit as many people who are willing to listen as possible. I wonder if he still has his buddy Dave calling in, pretending to be a random supporter?

I'm really sorry, but Ford's transgressions have been a matter of public record for some time now and the interpretation of these events is not up for debate, unless one's goal is to dilberately obsfucate facts. The truth is not somewhere in the middle like an old episode of South Park, he is demonstrably a bigotted jackass who is unfit to hold political office. He got elected because he was born with and surrounded by enough money to throw at it, and because he said a lot of populist bullshit that amounts to jack squat but sounds good to anybody who has been effectively conditioned to be selfish, greedy and clueless by the prevailing culture. (Incidently, and while this is merely personal ancedote, I've never met a business owner who didn't fit in that catagory perfectly.)

Ford is not the antithesis of modern politics, he is it's perfect representative. Abrasive, loud, sensless, outright hostile to anyone not fortunate enough to be in the same class as he is, and propped up by monied interests in order to push their agenda at everyone else's expense.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't seem to have any reasonable criticisms of the mayor and you mainly seem to be guided by an intense hatred of "business people" in general (saying you've never met a business person that isn't selfish, greedy or clueless). Combined with the amount of spelling mistakes you made in that post, your "critiques" just aren't coming across as very reasonable or intelligent. They're all ad hominem attacks.

It's fine if you hate the mayor on the basis of your own personal biases (intense dislike of business people/rich people), but then don't look down at Ford supporters. There are intelligent people on both sides of the spectrum, as there are also dumb people. This idea that Ford supporters are blind sheep or morons is wrong, and its this contemptuous attitude that is part of the reason Ford won in the first place. He appealed to voters for a reason, and part of the reason is because he addressed problems and concerns that resonated with people which were neglected by the other candidates.

As for those comments, the first one isn't homophobic (I'm not sure how not understanding what transsexualism is makes him homophobic) and the second one is statistically true, so it can't be homophobic by virtue of its truth. As for the Pride parade, the parade is not synonymous with or representative of all gay people. Not frequenting or liking a parade does not equate to not liking or respecting gay people.

 

[CowboyLogic]

He's a bad leader in your opinion. That's not a fact, although you are entitled to your opinion.

And I can't agree that most people here back up their rants with facts. Some people here do, but some of the most extreme and unreasonable anti-Ford vitriol I've seen has been on this thread.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

He's a bad leader in your opinion. That's not a fact, although you are entitled to your opinion.

And I can't agree that most people here back up their rants with facts. Some people here do, but some of the most extreme and unreasonable anti-Ford vitriol I've seen has been on this thread.

Dude, you're trolling. Please stop. He's a bad leader b/c he's the Mayor of a city with a weak mayor system who has lost all control of the significant files to others on his council through wilful blindness. If he is not willing to build consensus, he needs to not be mayor.

 

[ThinkRicky]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't seem to have any reasonable criticisms of the mayor and you mainly seem to be guided by an intense hatred of "business people" in general (saying you've never met a business person that isn't selfish, greedy or clueless). Combined with the amount of spelling mistakes you made in that post, your "critiques" just aren't coming across as very reasonable or intelligent. They're all ad hominem attacks.

Actually, I've backed up what I've said with quotes of Ford's. I'm sorry if my spelling isn't 100% perfect all the time but I wasn't aware this was an english class, and so far I haven't recieved any complaints from anyone about not conveying my thoughts clearly. If I have a bias toward "business people" in general it is because of what I have observed of their behaviour and the world they have made; I do not make any implications about that type of individual's character lightly or without cause.

It's fine if you hate the mayor on the basis of your own personal biases (intense dislike of business people/rich people), but then don't look down at Ford supporters. There are intelligent people on both sides of the spectrum, as there are also dumb people.

I'll stop looking down on them when they stop giving me reasons to. I don't go through life looking for reasons to judge people, but anyone who can sit at a computer with an internet connection for any length of time with the inclination to look Rob Ford up, and can come away from what they find thinking "why yes this man seems entirely reasonable" leaves my blood running cold. Hell, anybody who has read this thread alone (I'll grant that this is a lot of pages to go through) should have seen all the reasons why Ford is literally unfit to be mayor laid out for them in explicit detail dozens of times.

This idea that Ford supporters are blind sheep or morons is wrong, and its this contemptuous attitude that is part of the reason Ford won in the first place. He appealed to voters for a reason, and part of the reason is because he addressed problems and concerns that resonated with people which were neglected by the other candidates.

Ford may have addressed those concerns in the same way that a TV show that wants more viewership will address that concern by dumbing down it's plots and adding more gratuitous action sequences. The people wanted the "gravy train" stopped and what, 400 million dollars later we find that there was in fact no gravy? And we've had to put up with nonsensical subway plans that go nowhere and drama after drama, scandal after scandal ever since? Is it worth it to remove 100,000 worth of bike lanes for 3 times that amount? There are literally annotated lists with links to reliable sources on the first page of google results of reasons why this guy is an idiot for crying out loud.

As for those comments, the first one isn't homophobic (I'm not sure how not understanding what transsexualism is makes him homophobic) and the second one is statistically true, so it can't be homophobic by virtue of its truth. As for the Pride parade, the parade is not synonymous with or representative of all gay people. Not frequenting or liking a parade does not equate to not liking or respecting gay people.

There are more ways to get AIDS other than sleeping with a gay or bisexual dude, and a huge part of reducing it's growth in those communities was proper education. Aside from that, the rest of his statement indicates a blase, unempathetic attitude and lack of understanding of an important issue, one that the mayor of a city as diverse as Toronto should be be able to wrap his brain around a little more easily. This is Toronto, not Tumbletwat, Middleonowhere where queers and trans people don't exist. This disturbing lack of understanding is I'm sorry to say, in my own experience, a fairly typical attitude to find in the GTA.

 

[ahm]

If any of you honestly think that there isn't an equal amount of baseless blind hatred of the man as there is adoration, then you're probably just as blind as the Ford Nation supporters you lambast.

i appreciate your attempt at reaching across ye olde partisan divide, but you've managed to word your effort poorly. i HONESTLY think there isn't an equal amount of baseless blind hatred of the mayor as there is adoration. sincerely. i think a lot of people who are very very frustrated by the mayor and his policies have chosen rather trite and cliched ways of expressing it - hyperbolic declarations against the man, instead of his policies, as it seems that knocking his policy planks have little to no effect on either his praxis nor his support - but i am not convinced that there is a well of unreasoned hate that equals (qualitatively or quantitatively) the faith of his supporters. i reject your assertion, that simply because i do not think as you do, that i am just as blind as the people i lambaste. i make an effort to not only vary my news sources (although really, don peat is not a conservative, i swear to god he just writes for them) but to also get as much of a sense of the tenor of ford nation by reading the comments. the conservative reader who makes a good, fair, and accurate comment about a story supporting the mayor is a rare one. most fling talking points like so much monkey poo. the mayor's detractors, while not immune to the seduction of partisan bs, are less vitriolic and far more compassionate.

i chalk it up to a difference in values. we're never going to agree because you lot think you're making a concession to understanding our* pov when you are actually doing no such thing. your post illustrates this well, i think.

* "our", i say, but in reality i feel little to no community with your typical "liberal", small or big L.

 

[VoicesCarry]

As for those comments, the first one isn't homophobic (I'm not sure how not understanding what transsexualism is makes him homophobic) and the second one is statistically true, so it can't be homophobic by virtue of its truth. As for the Pride parade, the parade is not synonymous with or representative of all gay people. Not frequenting or liking a parade does not equate to not liking or respecting gay people.

Let's revisit Rob's actual words:

"Why are we catering to one group with a disease that's preventable? It's very preventable. If you're not doing needles and you're not gay, you won't get AIDS probably. And I don't know why we're spending $1.5-million on this."

It would have been statistically true - but not supportive of Rob's agenda - to state that, if you don't engage in high-risk behaviours, you probably won't get AIDS. And educating people so that they can reduce their risk of infection is the entire purpose of a preventive educational program, which is what we were spending $1.5M on. At least his second sentence demonstrates some understanding that the disease is preventable (but only if the right efforts are in place).

Rob's statements, however, are both inaccurate and ignorant. There is not "one group" of people who get HIV. And simply being gay does not put you at high risk for HIV. Unprotected sex - homosexual or heterosexual - is the key risk factor. And far too many heterosexuals are getting HIV for Rob to simply dismiss it as a "gay" disease or a "drug user's" disease. Labeling a disease in that way only serves to stigmatize those with the disease, and that's why his comments are homophobic.

 

[ttk77]

Wasn't this statement made in response for his voting against accepting provincial funding for HIV treatment and prevention? That's what I seem to recall anyway. If my memory is correct, then it's not the statement itself that proves his homophobia, its that he thinks its ok to turn down treatment programs simply because the people affected are gay or drug addicts. If that weren't enough, his opposition to gay marriage in itself is enough to label him a prejudiced homophobe.

 

[animated]

Info on the fight for the warrants:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...ler-warrants-rob-ford-alleged-drug-video.html

 

[ColinZeal]

Rob's statements, however, are both inaccurate and ignorant. There is not "one group" of people who get HIV. And simply being gay does not put you at high risk for HIV. Unprotected sex - homosexual or heterosexual - is the key risk factor. And far too many heterosexuals are getting HIV for Rob to simply dismiss it as a "gay" disease or a "drug user's" disease. Labeling a disease in that way only serves to stigmatize those with the disease, and that's why his comments are homophobic.

Not to mention the fact that by saying "if you're not gay, you won't get AIDS" he seems to mean that if people don't want to get AIDS, they should just not be gay, like it's a choice.