cdr108
Senior Member
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Rob Ford's Toronto
- Thread starter MetroMan
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dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
This came right out of left field, I'm out of commission right now with back spasms so I was laying in bed watching this whole thing on channel 10 as it went down. I'm in the middle on the whole thing, either charge 5¢ (or 6¢ with HST) or ban them and move back to paper bags. Plastic bottles also need to be addressed but probably provincially or federally, those things are nastier than plastic bags and we made it through until the 1990's just fine with glass until plastic bottles became all the rage.
So if you casually decide to go grocery shopping, buy fabric bags or use the store supplied paper bags, it's not the end of the world here. Those who prefer fabric will need to load up on them anyway because after a few uses they have to be washed *. Then they can be folded up just fine and can be carried in a briefcase - I carry two or three in my knapsack, I never leave home without them.
As for dog poop bags you shouldn't be using plastic bags anyway, any bargain store or pet store sells boxes of biodegradable 'poop & scoop' bags cheap (60-100 bags, roughly $1.25-$1.99).
This will tick off some people, others are cheering a progressive idea finally coming out of Toronto for the first time in ages.
If you need any convincing how bad plastics are (besides taking a few thousand years to break down in landfills while they leach chemicals underground) check out what's happening with the Pacific Garbage Patch (Google it if your interested) - an area the size of Texas and growing, swirling unknown thousands of tons of plastics.
* Wash your bags
Red October
Senior Member
Oh noes! This is a travesty, because there is absolutely no solution already present that the majority of people already use!
Oh wait...
nfitz
Superstar
In the grocery stores it was ... they used to put all the frozen items (juice, meat, etc.) into small plastic bags, that they then put in the big paper bags; so that the melting and sweating frozen stuff didn't leak water onto the paper bag, causing it to fail. And of course, so many of the paper bags got double-bagged, so that they could handle the weight ... milk in particular, which also sweated to some extent, and would often fail in a single paper bag. It wasn't unusual to lift the paper bag out of the car, and to have the contents all fall out into the back of the car, or onto the driveway.
It certainly made the entire check-out experience slower - though typically back then, there'd be a bagger at each checkout.
Society will survive ... I'm just surprised that so many are so keen about a solution that will create extra waste - at least in my household.
So 25¢ a piece, instead of the 5¢ a piece I pay now. So, with about 3-4 a week for the cat litter, and 3-4 a week for the green bin, I'll need 7 a week, or about 350 a year. So instead of paying about $17 a year, now I'll be paying about $90 a year. That's more than the vehicle tax. And I'll still be throwing about probably throwing out about 250 paper bags a year. Which I suppose one might argue is trivial compared to the 700 or so newspapers I throw out a year.
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ttk77
Senior Member
After reading into this more, I'm of the mind that this decision needs an amendment. From The Star article here (http://www.thestar.com/news/article...uncil-votes-to-ban-plastic-shopping-bags?bn=1) it appears that the ban also includes the biodegradable "plastic" bags. I do think that is going a bit overboard.
Tee
Active Member
Bravo Toronto City Council. You got it right! As for the notion that people will be without a bag if they 'spontaneously shop', we will, out of necessity, be forced to adopt new habits, such as planning ahead. This is not a bad thing. You can also buy a bag for about 99 cents. Honestly, I think that, by now, people are already carrying bags/or other, thicker, reusable plastic type bags in your car, or on your person.
jeff316
Active Member
The worry over the biodegradable bags is misplaced. They aren't really all that great since they just breakdown into little tiny plastic particles anyway.
Compostable bags are a different story - those shouldn't be banned. But it all depends on the standards as some of the compostable plastics are not easily composted by the plants we use here.
I'm no Ford fan but this seems hasty and risky. We bring our own containers but usually buy a few bags for meat and milk, and use the in-store ones for veggies. The ban is an inconvenience but it is the type of thing that gets Ford supporters all riled up and motivated. I understand the desire to taunt the bear - it's fun to have these votes flip on him and achieve something to boot - but I think this is the type of niggly little thing that could end up helping Ford in the end.
Compostable bags are a different story - those shouldn't be banned. But it all depends on the standards as some of the compostable plastics are not easily composted by the plants we use here.
I'm no Ford fan but this seems hasty and risky. We bring our own containers but usually buy a few bags for meat and milk, and use the in-store ones for veggies. The ban is an inconvenience but it is the type of thing that gets Ford supporters all riled up and motivated. I understand the desire to taunt the bear - it's fun to have these votes flip on him and achieve something to boot - but I think this is the type of niggly little thing that could end up helping Ford in the end.
ttk77
Senior Member
When I said biodegradable I meant the bags made of corn fibre rather than the plastic bags that break down in the sun into tiny pieces. That said, you're right, it's not a huge deal. It's just odd to ban a corn based bag while allowing a paper based bag. Even if the paper bags are made of recycled material it still means that a tree was chopped down at some point, while the corn bag is a renewable by-product of something we already grow every year for food.
bobbob911
Active Member
Those of you pushing for reusable bags should read this article (or at least the Executive Summary):
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/publications/129364.aspx
Just be clear what you are supporting. IMO reusing plastic grocery shopping bags is the most environmentally friendly option for the masses.
Also, be aware that city council has specifically banned biodegradable plastic bags for green waste or recycling, because they don't play nice with their processing equipment:
http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/biodegradable_plastic.htm
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/publications/129364.aspx
Just be clear what you are supporting. IMO reusing plastic grocery shopping bags is the most environmentally friendly option for the masses.
Also, be aware that city council has specifically banned biodegradable plastic bags for green waste or recycling, because they don't play nice with their processing equipment:
http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/biodegradable_plastic.htm
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ttk77
Senior Member
I've only read the summary and conclusions so far, but it appears that the study focuses on the carbon footprint/global warming aspect of sustainability. It does not seem to touch on what happens to those bags after they are disposed of, and what kind of chemicals leech into our ecosystems as they break down.
OttoSchloss
Active Member
I've already started hording all the plastic bags I can get my greedy little hands on, and then I'm going to sell them back to the poor plastic bag addicts out of the back of my car come 2013, at a huge profit!
bobbob911
Active Member
Well, plastic bags don't break down - that's sort of the point
Besides, pick your poison: burning coal/generating grey water to make the reusable bags, or leaching in the landfill with the plastic bags....
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
BobBob:
According to the report you have posted, that depends on the number of times the disposable plastic bag or the reusable bag is reused - and the study also admitted to it:
Without that piece of information, a meaningful justification is kind of difficult.
That said, I think the whole banning plastic bags thing might turn out to be a Trojan Horse - the ban might get challenged at the courts and if the city loses, there will be no fallback onto the "levy". Besides, the best way to lower environmental footprint is reduce and reuse, which the "levy" encourages but switching to paperbags won't.
AoD
According to the report you have posted, that depends on the number of times the disposable plastic bag or the reusable bag is reused - and the study also admitted to it:
Without that piece of information, a meaningful justification is kind of difficult.
That said, I think the whole banning plastic bags thing might turn out to be a Trojan Horse - the ban might get challenged at the courts and if the city loses, there will be no fallback onto the "levy". Besides, the best way to lower environmental footprint is reduce and reuse, which the "levy" encourages but switching to paperbags won't.
AoD
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bobbob911
Active Member
The report states (for example) that if the average person reuses a plastic bag 40% of the time, you would need to reuse a cotton bag 173 times just to equal the environmental impact. It doesn't matter what the actual reuse rate is to establish the comparison, only this: Is it more likely the average person reuses 40% of their plastic bags one time, or is it more likely the average person reuses their cloth bag 173 times? (in other words, groceries 1/week for over 3 years)?
nfitz
Superstar
How many years would that take though ... it typically takes about 10 years to get through the court system. By 2023, they'd have probably had enough impact banning bags, that the outcome wouldn't matter.
Also, the city has successfully banned other things before without losing in court. They banned alcohol sales in some areas for years; even today the province quite successfully bans many stores from selling alcohol.
Now if only the city would use it's newfound powers to ban cigarette sales
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