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Rob Ford's Toronto

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js97 said:
There is a big difference between government spending and producing a result, and government spending to appease a small minority group. I have absolutely no problems if the City of Toronto all of a sudden added a 'wage' tax, but used it to deliver deliver a subway net across the city. I do have a problem if they implemented the new wage tax to simply add more entitlements to the minority city employees
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Oviously have very little understanding beyond whats shown to you in front. If you think it was Miller that contributed to this rennaissance of our city, you're completely out to lunch

Have you actually ever lived in any of those countries you listed? First of all, those countries you mentioned have very little immigration, and have minimal room for mobility across social classes. To reach this 'utopia' you continually champion for, you'd have to substantially reduce our current immigration policies (and become a bit of a xenophone). The far left would have to make concessions on their demands as unions in those countries are far less 'militant' than ones in Canada. And everyone would have to be happy with living in equal arrangements, but also work as much as everyone else.

This isn't about no taxes and a complete free market, unfettered capitalism is no better than a 'far reaching' socialist government. It's about striking a balance between 'wants' and 'needs', and Miller capitulated too far left. Almost half the city agreed, that's why less than 20 % elected to continue his policies with Pantalone. If that's not proof, I'm not sure what else.
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1. Toronto cannot implement 'wage' taxes. Ontario didn't give them that power. Not that they'd want it.

2. I'm currently living in France. A very good friend of mine emigrated to Norway to work for Coca-Cola across northeastern Europe. You have no idea how European society or immigration works, but it has no impact on Toronto mayoralty discussions whatsoever.

3. Pantalone and Smitherman were terrible candidates, but you absolutely cannot blame Miller for Pantalone being horrible. If Miller had run in that election, Ford, Pantalone, AND Smitherman would not have taken on the incumbent. They only reason we had so many terrible candidates was because they all figured, what the heck? Here's my chance without an incumbent.
 
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Riverdale Rink Rat said:
1. Toronto cannot implement 'wage' taxes. Ontario didn't give them that power. Not that they'd want it.

2. I'm currently living in France. A very good friend of mine emigrated to Norway to work for Coca-Cola across northeastern Europe. You have no idea how European immigration works.

3. Pantalone and Smitherman were terrible candidates, but you absolutely cannot blame Miller for Pantalone being horrible. If Miller had run in that election, Ford, Pantalone, AND Smitherman would not have taken on the incumbent. They only reason we had so many terrible candidates was because they all figured, what the heck? Here's my chance without an incumbent.
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1. That is fine, but I was pointing out to my willingess to actually pay taxes for delivered services
2. You don't see the irony? Your friend moved for a better job to a multi-national corporation that only exists because of capitalism?
3. Agree, both where bad candidates, but let's be real. If Miller ran instead of Pantalone, he would still have lossed.
 
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2. You don't see the irony? Your friend moved for a better job to a multi-national corporation that only exists because of capitalism?
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"Left of Stalin" notwithstanding, few on UT believes in Communism. And surely you can note the irony of a multinational corporation operating and hiring in a high tax, high regulation jurisdiction like Norway?

AoD
 
js97 said:
There is a big difference between government spending and producing a result, and government spending to appease a small minority group. I have absolutely no problems if the City of Toronto all of a sudden added a 'wage' tax, but used it to deliver deliver a subway net across the city. I do have a problem if they implemented the new wage tax to simply add more entitlements to the minority city employees
---



Oviously have very little understanding beyond whats shown to you in front. If you think it was Miller that contributed to this rennaissance of our city, you're completely out to lunch

Have you actually ever lived in any of those countries you listed? First of all, those countries you mentioned have very little immigration, and have minimal room for mobility across social classes. To reach this 'utopia' you continually champion for, you'd have to substantially reduce our current immigration policies (and become a bit of a xenophone). The far left would have to make concessions on their demands as unions in those countries are far less 'militant' than ones in Canada. And everyone would have to be happy with living in equal arrangements, but also work as much as everyone else.

This isn't about no taxes and a complete free market, unfettered capitalism is no better than a 'far reaching' socialist government. It's about striking a balance between 'wants' and 'needs', and Miller capitulated too far left. Almost half the city agreed, that's why less than 20 % elected to continue his policies with Pantalone. If that's not proof, I'm not sure what else.
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Obviously you do not understand that immigration to Canada, the US, and Australia has a lot to do with the vast amounts of land and resources available and little else. You also seem to be making things up regarding class mobility. Social/economic mobility is high in Canada, but it is higher in both Norway and Denmark. Germany, Belgium, etc. have relatively low social mobility but still fare much better than the US - which allows huge immigration and and has low taxes. Miller's policies if anything increased class mobility.

If you choose to ignore what Miller accomplished, or to disagree with his policies, that's down to you. To argue that he was fiscally irresponsible is complete nonsense, however. Say that he invested in things you do not support and you are entitled to that opinion.

The electorate voting for Rob Ford demonstrated nothing other than the fact that a huge percentage of Torontonians do not understand or do not care about how politics, the economy, or cities work. Ford was elected because he promised to cut spending without cutting services, to build subways without paying for them, and to cut taxes without opening new sources of revenue.
 
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Uncharacteristicly, Ford is now sounding apologetic, contrite. Has the reality that he has lost his job finally sunk in? According to Toronto Star, he said:

Here is what the mayor said at his press conference. He did not take questions.

“I was elected two years ago by the people of this great city to do a job...that job is not finished yet.”
“I respect the courts decision that was released yesterday, my decision to appeal is not a criticism of the court. But I feel it’s important to work through the appeal system to so I can continue to do the work I was elected to do by the taxpayers of the city.”
“This entire matter began because I love to help kids play football. When this came to council for a vote, I felt it was important to answer the accusation that had been made against me.”
“I was focused on raising money to help underprivileged youth. I never believed there was a conflict of interest because I had nothing to gain and the city had nothing to lose.”
“But I respect the court’s decision.”
“Looking back, maybe I could have expressed myself in a different way.”
“To everyone who believes I should have done this differently, I sincerely apologize.”
“The people elected me to bring respect for the taxpayers back to City Hall.”
“I will keep working to do exactly that for as long as I can, or until the people elect someone else to do the job.”
“Thank you very much, unfortunately that’s all I can say at this time.”
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Riverdale Rink Rat said:
That's not true, unless you think that the term 'responsible steward' is equated with 'lowering taxes.' Miller addressed the need to build more transit...
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I would never equate fiscal responsibility with simply lowering taxes, but increasing city spending for seven years at a rate two or three times the rate of inflation was imprudent.

During his term, Miller roughly doubled the city's debt to fund capital projects and I had no problem with that. As you and others have pointed out, we were indeed suffering from an infrastructure deficit.

But the figures I cited earlier had to do with operational spending. Miller's 44% boost for the most part wasn't buying streetcars but instead feeding increases in program spending. Increased debt-carrying costs made up only a minor part of that.
 
People, Toronto is a City, Norway is a Country. Comparison between the two is impossible, the positive attributes you assign to Norway may well be true but Norway is a sovereign entity, Toronto is not.
I have never been to Norway but I have discussed the differences between life in Norway (a Country) and Toronto (a City) many times with my Norwegian son-in-law and his parents and they are immense.
 
bobbob911 said:
Yes, more or less accurate (I would argue inflation was closer to 2.5% avg but whatever). The point is that 3.5% is not "many times over" 2%, its less than two times.

Was Miller "fiscally responsible"? Tough to say. If you inherit an underfunded city and you have to grow revenues by more than inflation to get back on track (ie after Lastman's repeated tax-freeze years which were fiscally 'irresponsible'), then that's what you have to do. Its worth repeating over and over - Our property taxes are lower than all of our neighbors in 905. IMO it would be "fiscally responsible" to not pretend we don't have the same expenses that they do, and therefore should not complain about paying equivalent rates.

All of that is simply my opinion - but it is fact that no Miller budget increased tax rates by many times the rate of inflation.
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One should also include population increases as well. The city of Toronto grew Between 2006 and 2011 by 111,779 residents, an increase of 4.5%. In 2001, Toronto had 2,481,494. However at the same time, between 2006 and 2011, the entire GTA's population increased by 9.0% or by 498,336 persons. And the residents who travel into Toronto do not pay property taxes for using the city's facilities, such as roads.
 
Calls are mounting within city council for Ford to step aside while be pursues his appeal. He clearly has lost all legitimacy to rule and everybody just wants to move on.

The earliest the appeal verdict will come through if it is granted will be mid January but most likely February or March. Council can't focus on business for 3 months without the Mayor legitimacy hanging over them. There seems to be enough support to install Doug Holyday as caretaker Mayor until after Ford's appeal is resolved after which an election would be called or a permanent appointment made.
 
MetroMan said:
Calls are mounting within city council for Ford to step aside while be pursues his appeal.
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I'm not sure he can and then be re-instated if he wins his appeal. If he "steps aside" by resigning, then he's quit his office, and he can't legally get it back. And I don't know of any other way for him to step aside that would be legally binding, or ensure that he doesn't stick his nose in things during the waiting period.
 
I think Ford's words of wisdom are so approprite at this time.
[video=youtube_share;nySs1cEq5rs]http://youtu.be/nySs1cEq5rs[/video]
You know what they say "what goes around, comes around."
 
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