Rob Ford's Toronto

[pud99]

The problem with this scenario is that, AFAIK, it isn't a simple matter to directly record calls on an iPhone, unless it is jailbroken (which I highly doubt), because apps are prevented by the OS from recording phone calls. I think Apple put this restriction in for legal reasons. (e.g. In some US states, only one party needs to know that a call is being recorded. In other states, both parties need to know.)

If it isn't jailbroken, I think you would have to use an app that will
- Either: use VOIP and route the call through someone else's servers or require you to add their phone number on a 3-way conference call so they can record the audio
- Possibly cost additional money
- Notify both parties that the call is being recorded (this would probably be the biggest dealbreaker for Lisi's purposes)


Even apps for directly recording calls on a jailbroken iPhone will likely notify both parties, for the same legal reasons.

One could of course put an iPhone on hands free and then use a second smartphone to record the call using a voice memo app. (Not that I am advocating such a thing!) But no one seems to suggest that Lisi had more than one smartphone; and, again, the ITO does not suggest that the TPS thought they would find any home-made wiretaps.

 

[ThoughtArcade]

I've never been under the impression that the data warrant had anything to do with the expectation that Lisi was recording his own calls.

Most crime/plans/etc just does not happen over the phone. I seriously don't think there was the expectation that he had a homebrew call recording.

On the other hand, when he's in person -- or hey, even on the phone is *possible* -- you put the iphone on speaker and use its stock audio recorder.

ETA: My point being, the initial 40 second call is suspicious, and sets the trail, but the popo probably had no expectation they'd recover that. But what they might get,
is a recorded conversation in the park, near and escalade, with a phone set to record in Lisi's pocket along the lines of "Did you get it?" "I'm working on it" "Do what you gotta do, but get it"

Instead we all got a kick in the softbits.

 

[blearghhh]

It's just looking more and more like there is no case against Rob that would stand up in court.

I don't really even get the point of endlessly tracking Ford's comings and goings and phone calls. It provides circumstantial evidence, but without looking inside those envelopes, hearing what was said in the phone calls, or seeing what was going on inside dwellings, what is the point of it all? A plane, really? Did they think he was about to blow up the CN Tower? I just don't get it.

Well, this is the thing. You don't know what you're going to find until you look.

What they had was a whole lot of circumstantial evidence, which of course does not stand up in court for a criminal charge. What it does do is provide enough evidence to justify doing an investigation and getting search warrants. That's why all this stuff was in ITOs, so they could search for real evidence.

Now, the fact that they didn't find anything doesn't mean they shouldn't have looked, because they didn't know there was nothing there until they did it. I suppose knowing then what we do now, would they have made the same choices? Perhaps not, but life doesn't work that way Skippy.

I would also imagine that if they do go to a judge again for another warrant, they're going to have a much tougher time of it.

 

[rightwingSUVdriver]

What they were hoping for on Lisi's iPhone is an audio recording of Ford talking with Lisi in person about the extortion attempts. Or Lisi speaking with someone else about it and implicating Ford. If that existed, Ford would've probably been charged by now.

However, there may be other recordings with oblique references that, if cross-referenced with texts/calls/GPS for context, could strongly suggest the same thing. Or there may be clear evidence of other crimes not involving Ford directly, but which give the detectives tools to pry more info out of existing players (or new ones).

 

[Electrify]

You know, before we had all this surveillance tech, how did prosecutors ever get a conviction? We have recorded evidence of Lisi threatening someone with violence in order to get back an embarrassing video of someone, AND recorded evidence of that someone discreetly giving an envelope to Lisi at a gas station. We might not know what that 40 second call was about, but the fact that we KNOW there was a call is impressive on its own.

Certainly far more evidence to charge Ford with extortion than to charge that girl with assault for throwing a water bottle "near" him.

 

[anonymoose]

On the other hand, when he's in person -- or hey, even on the phone is *possible* -- you put the iphone on speaker and use its stock audio recorder.

That won't work either; Apple thought of that. The built-in audio recorder doesn't work during calls.

You would need a second device or you'd have to use a workaround (like Google Voice for incoming calls or 3rd-party phone service for outgoing calls) which will probably notify the other guy that you are recording him.

 

[ThoughtArcade]

What they were hoping for on Lisi's iPhone is an audio recording of Ford talking with Lisi in person about the extortion attempts. Or Lisi speaking with someone else about it and implicating Ford. If that existed, Ford would've probably been charged by now.

However, there may be other recordings with oblique references that, if cross-referenced with texts/calls/GPS for context, could strongly suggest the same thing. Or there may be clear evidence of other crimes not involving Ford directly, but which give the detectives tools to pry more info out of existing players (or new ones).

Yeah, precisely.

And let's not forget the envelopes. Nobody can tell me that any non-crooked cop wouldn't be doing backflips to get to the contents/source/players involved in those envelopes.

 

[ThoughtArcade]

That won't work either; Apple thought of that. The built-in audio recorder doesn't work during calls.

You would need a second device or you'd have to use a workaround (like Google Voice for incoming calls or 3rd-party phone service for outgoing calls) which will probably notify the other guy that you are recording him.

Ok, fair enough. Haven't used an iphone in a while. I edited my post to get a bit more to my point:

TA: My point being, the initial 40 second call is suspicious, and sets the trail, but the popo probably had no expectation they'd recover that. But what they might get,
is a recorded conversation in the park, near an escalade, with a phone set to record in Lisi's pocket along the lines of "Did you get it?" "I'm working on it" "Do what you gotta do, but get it"

 

[soimelk]

Jimmi T once told us here he'd heard the cops found "good stuff" on the phone. I guess good was not enough.

We have to remember that what the OPP knows about Lisi's phone data is zip. They said yesterday that the TPS has not passed on any information to them in that regard. Brazen 2 investigators may very well have found good stuff and didn't feel (rightly so) like sharing that info to the world yesterday. For me, yesterday was a point in time where the TPS could have admitted defeat and packed it all up, given the kneecapping they received at the hands of the OPP. But instead, two senior members, Giroux and Pugash, reasserted it is still ongoing. It could be desperation on their part to avoid embarrassment, but if they have such poor prospects, stringing things along even further would only increase the condemnation from the public when things come to a halt. I think we are in the position we were before all the imminent arrest talk began a week ago, except now it seems the OPP is not exactly a willing partner in the investigation, and perhaps might have tried to shut the thing down by fiat (shout out to Norm Wilner)

 

[anonymoose]

and, again, the ITO does not suggest that the TPS thought they would find any home-made wiretaps.

I agree, but since it was brought up on this board more than once, I wanted to point out that it's unlikely, for technical and practical reasons.

 

[whatthe]

I would also imagine that if they do go to a judge again for another warrant, they're going to have a much tougher time of it.

Uh... why? A judge grants a warrant based on the information put before him or her, not based on what the OPP says in a press release.

 

[FraudNation]

Don't be so dismissive and hostile. Not everyone spends that much time on Urban Toronto.

Summary of last 50 pages: What we expected has been thrown up in the air, and Ford's arrest is no longer happening for now. There can only be more predictions once the dust settles.

Thanks. As much as I believe he will win the election, he sure looks (even) stupider than normal saying "I didn't do anything wrong". Like really? Crack ain't wrong? What a fantastic role model for children. Just an amazing display of a piece of shit human being.
No one will be surprised or saddened when the obese-addict lifestyle catches up to him alone in a shabby hotel meeting his timely death.

 

[sno man]

Thanks. As much as I believe he will win the election, he sure looks (even) stupider than normal saying "I didn't do anything wrong". Like really? Crack ain't wrong? What a fantastic role model for children. Just an amazing display of a piece of shit human being.
No one will be surprised or saddened when the obese-addict lifestyle catches up to him alone in a shabby hotel meeting his timely death.

I saw that clip, was that you that did that? The rain at the end was a nice touch.

 

[pattycakes]

Ford won't win the election, he'll be lucky to get 10% of the vote. Once again the Torontoist's David Hains has done a recap of the latest Ford Nation video:

http://torontoist.com/2014/04/the-rob-and-doug-ford-web-show-recap-fan-fiction-edition/

edited for this excerpt:

"In the words of noted anthropologist Elena Basso, Rob Ford “is a big fucking idiot.”

 

[rightwingSUVdriver]

I agree, but since it was brought up on this board more than once, I wanted to point out that it's unlikely, for technical and practical reasons.

I mean, it's ridiculously easy. Stick a small recording device near the earpiece while talking, even on non-speaker mode, and you can record any conversation untraceably. You could use a phone, a portable voice recorder, or a friggin yak bak.

Thing is, I don't think Lisi ever thought about "extortion," the crime. He was just doing what you do - being tough. Taking care of bizness. Protecting his meal ticket, Rob Ford. And I don't think Ford would've mentally processed it as "extortion" either. In his mind, he was the only person wronged, and he wanted to get control of the situation. SUBWAYYYYYSSSS! So even if Lisi had the know-how to record that mysterious 40 second call, I doubt he would've.