Rob Ford's Toronto

[Eug]

I was in New York City for a week recently and I had the hardest time using the transit system. I could not find attendants/ticket takers to ask for directions or get help with buying a weekly pass. I must have asked about a dozen people to help me buy a subway pass and not one single person knew how to use the machines.

Last time I was there, I found the routes rather complex, but otherwise didn't have a huge problem with their system.

Interestingly, in cities where everything is automated, there are often a few bums hanging around who know the system inside out, and are more than willing to share that information for a buck.

50k for a surly cashier is way too much. Besides, I'd rather pay $100 000 for a machine once.

Exactly. Since when does a ticket taker need to be making $60000 a year? At 37.5 hours a week, that works out to 1950 hours a year. That's over $30 an hour.

For overtime, that means they may be making over $45 an hour. That's just crazy.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think those are the kinds of issues the city should concentrate on - how things are done in the city vs. the general obsession as to what the city should or shouldn't do, which suggests a more ideologically driven agenda.

Dilla:

Not that public sector salary growth isn't an issue - the way the data is presented without any additional info can be problematic - I don't know anything about the position type/makeup of the comparator private sector or the changes over time. I bet you if you break it down by income groups youd find some startling patterns. Beyond that, no one starts a graph at 500 as a general good practice - it'd be much more informative if both are normalized to say 1992 = 100.

AoD

 

[JMSRead]

I am by no means conservative or anti-union (I am a member of two unions myself!), but the fact that there are ticket collectors (who from my experience are often very unpleasant) making something like $100,000 is a disgrace.

It's things like that that lead to the anti union right wing surge we have seen with the rise of 'Ford Nation'.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

I'm certainly not opposed to wage freezes, or even reasonable rollbacks during tough economic times if it means people can keep their jobs as opposed to layoffs but when times are good getting cost of living increases isn't unreasonable at all. Contacting out jobs worries me as it's becoming more and more popular and eliminating so many middle income earners, look south of the border where it's common place. It's not a pretty situation.

 

[GraphicMatt]

It's rarely as simple as it seems. At this point, most ticket takers working for the TTC are injured workers.

I agree that ultimately the position should be removed and replaced with fare card machines, but it's not as if a government can just wave a magic wand and make that happen. They've been working on Presto for more than a half a decade at this point, and it still doesn't seem quite ready for primetime.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes and no - there are questions as to why there are so many injuried workers, the general quality of this service and the appropriateness of hanging onto an obsolete tech that must be asked. The bigger question is whether the senior management of the org is fit to lead given their apparent disconnectedness with these issues.

AoD

 

[GraphicMatt]

Oh, for sure. I think there are tremendous problems with management at the TTC. I'm just wary of people who think that right-wing politicians are best equipped to effectively tackle those problems. Inevitably, they'd rather just cut transit service and save money that way.

 

[Eug]

when times are good getting cost of living increases isn't unreasonable at all

Well, that's one of the issues. I'm not sure I understand why a ticket taker would make more than a construction worker, or an assembly line worker, or a secretary for that matter. In that context, even during good times I would support cost of living increases for the construction worker or secretary but I might want to see wage rollbacks for ticket takers.

EDIT:

To put this into perspective:

In the sciences, Ph.D. post-doctorate fellows might be making that, and medical doctors who have finished their sub-specialty training but choose to do another year of two of sub-sub-speciality training might make $70000-80000. We're talking about people with something like 12-15 years education behind their belts. Similarly, teachers with several years' experience might only be making $50000-60000 (with new hires making much less). Hell, even with all that angst with the garbage workers a few years ago, it should be noted that garbage collectors make in the range of $20-25 an hour.

Using that as a guide, I'd expect a TTC ticket taker to be making less than $20 an hour. Perhaps closer to $15 for new hires - ie. $30000-40000 a year max.

 

[tiffer24]

The problem is everyone thinks everyone else should be making less money. $15 an hour for a TTC ticket taker seems extravagant--not worth more than $10. We're all tied to the same brick though. Eliminate enough employees, both in the public and private sectors, and who will consume enough to keep the economy afloat? Is an economy saddled with 25% unemployment really the way to prosperity?

 

[spider]

The true value of a job, expressed as an hourly rate, is what the employer is willing to pay and still have applicants for the position.
Government involvement should be restricted to establishing a floor such as a "minimum wage". Unions should be restricted to protecting their members in the areas of safety and fair treatment but not wages.

 

[byont]

The problem is everyone thinks everyone else should be making less money. $15 an hour for a TTC ticket taker seems extravagant--not worth more than $10. We're all tied to the same brick though. Eliminate enough employees, both in the public and private sectors, and who will consume enough to keep the economy afloat? Is an economy saddled with 25% unemployment really the way to prosperity?

You do realize that TTC ticket takers make more than $15 an hour, right? If you take into consideration their pension, they make an incredible salary for what they do.

 

[byont]

There is a subsidized housing complex nearby which has this one tenant that is well-known to police. He sells soft drugs out of his apt. and has been arrested a few times after complaints from neighbours, etc. TCHC has not evicted him. I don't know if this is part of the reason they haven't evicted him, but he does have a physical disability. However, I wonder if it's simply because of the extremely bureaucratic approach TCHC often takes with these things, coupled with various methods available to problem tenants to further complexify the process.

TCHC does not take selling drugs out of units lightly.

 

[Torontovibe]

Ticket collectors may be there, but I've rarely seem them take the time to answer questions. Just because NYC can't get it together to design simple to use machines is not an argument for paying people (in some cases) six figures a year to do the same job as a teenager at 7-11. I've been to plenty of cities where paying for the subway was done at a machine, and was wholly intuitive.

Oh give me a break! I have asked the fare collectors for directions many times in Toronto and I have never had a problem. Most of them are polite and do their job. Do you even use the subways?

 

[Torontovibe]

Last time I was there, I found the routes rather complex, but otherwise didn't have a huge problem with their system.

Interestingly, in cities where everything is automated, there are often a few bums hanging around who know the system inside out, and are more than willing to share that information for a buck.


Exactly. Since when does a ticket taker need to be making $60000 a year? At 37.5 hours a week, that works out to 1950 hours a year. That's over $30 an hour.

For overtime, that means they may be making over $45 an hour. That's just crazy.

Listen, I asked more than a dozen people for directions and nobody knew where anything was. I had about 6 people who tried to help me buy a weekly transit pass and not 1 single person could work the damned machine. They ended up making me lose 10 bucks, instead of getting me a pass. I should have video taped it, it might have made a funny video. New Yorkers do not know where anything is, even the people who were born in the city. I basically had to figure out everything on my own. Some stations have 5 platforms and people couldn't even tell me what platform to go to, so don't tell me to ask people, I DID! I was frustrated as hell. I'll take Toronto's subways any day over NYC or Chicago. Our subways are cleaner, nicer, safer and we have way better service. Let's just hope Ford doesn't kill it.

Everybody seems quick to cut other people's wages but they sure as hell would not accept a wage cut for themselves so easily. We have a world where 5% of the population owns something like 95% of all the wealth and it's getting more unbalanced every year. Do you guys want to turn everyone in slaves who live below the poverty line? Sure, than you'll complain about these poor bastards having to rent an apartment at TCHC. I wish every one of these cold hearted pricks were forced to work for minimum wage and see how much fun that would be. What kind of a world do you people want?

 

[nfitz]

At this point, most ticket takers working for the TTC are injured workers.

Indeed ... and we should be paying them $60,000 to sit on the couch and watch Oprah and hire workers for $30,000 instead!!

Yes and no - there are questions as to why there are so many injuried workers, the general quality of this service and the appropriateness of hanging onto an obsolete tech that must be asked.

There's not that many ticket collector positions compared to operators. Any given day there's almost 2,000 vehicles in operation (counting the subway trains for 2 each as they have 2 operators). And there's what ... 80 ... maybe 90 ticket booths?

I don't have a hard time believing that maybe 4% of operators have gotten to the point where they shouldn't be driving for one reason or another ... does this sound that shocking?