Rob Ford's Toronto

[Ramako]

Funding all religious schools is still hugely discriminatory. Its a huge slap in the face to the quarter of us who are either athiest or agnostic.

Not that I necessarily agree with funding religious schools, but I wouldn't call it discriminatory, given that secular schools are publicly funded as well.

 

[JWBF]

Tsk,tsk, tsk... what's that about credibility Robbie?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...gn-manager-to-call-radio-show-doug-ford-says/

“I told him don’t call in. No one in the mayor’s office is allowed to call in,†said Mr. Ford, who considers the story to be a “joke.â€

"Mark Towhey, the mayor’s former chief of staff, said he knew Mr. Price had called in to the program because he recognized his voice, but as far as he could tell it happened before the mayor hired him."

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I attended French-Catholic school. HS 'religion' requirement could be filled with any number of theology courses. Mine was 'Religions of the World' - we didn't even talk about Catholicism although the teacher was a devout Catholic.

This isn't always the case. My mother is a religion teacher in the TCDSB. Some materials cover other religions, but it mostly centers around Catholicism. Most of the assignments include questions such as, "How have you looked to God [the Catholic one] in times of loss". Sound like publicly funded religious indoctrination to me.

 

[Eug]

You need a religion credit to graduate. This is government funded religious indoctrination.

That's just it. My limited understanding is that Ontario's education law basically forbids this requirement, but nonetheless many (but not all) catholic school boards will still force you to take it. You can fight it, which is precisely what my sister did, but then are told the kid won't graduate. However, if you fight it more, then sometimes they will back down. So, it seems to me they know full well they can't force kids to take these classes, but are willfully defying the law in cases where they can get away with it.

My point here is that if the law outright states a student in these publicly funded school systems cannot be forced to take a religion credit to graduate, this should be made completely clear, and school administrations cannot be allowed to strong-arm students to take it. And if the law is not clear enough, it should be made clear.

Do you mean that you have moved away from your family's NDP leanings, or is there something about Chow herself or the current NDP that puts them out of contention for you?

Both, but with the caveat that in general I've tended to like western Canada's style of NDP more than central Canada's. (I'm originally from Saskatchewan.) In recent times I would have considered voting provincial NDP in Regina, but probably not in Toronto.

Do you mean the bridge to the island airport? I really wish some of its opponents could understand that a fixed bridge is pretty much out of the question: it's a good idea to have a second entrance/exit to the inner harbour for the sake of shipping, plus the yacht clubs would have a bird about it. So it's either a tunnel or a movable bridge, because a ferry is not sustainable.

Ironically, lefty Barbara Hall was in support of the Centre Island bridge, but got defeated by Miller.

But I digress. The discussion is about Ford or the mayor, and to get back to my main point, I'm just not a huge fan of Olivia Chow, and don't want her as mayor.

 

[Bebop17]

Tsk,tsk, tsk... what's that about credibility Robbie?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...gn-manager-to-call-radio-show-doug-ford-says/

"“I don’t believe and I don’t tell people to call in. I never have and I never will,†he [Doug Ford] added, after encouraging Ford Nation to call the show." HAHAHAHAHA!

Did you SEE those comments? Between the tone of the article and the comments, anyone wanna bet that on their next show, Rob and Doug will be calling for the demise of three newspapers instead of two?

 

[Tewder]

This isn't always the case. My mother is a religion teacher in the TCDSB. Some materials cover other religions, but it mostly centers around Catholicism. Most of the assignments include questions such as, "How have you looked to God [the Catholic one] in times of loss". Sound like publicly funded religious indoctrination to me.

I agree with you. The taxpayer should fund one public school system, and one only... and it must be secular. Anything else should be funded privately. The separate school system of Ontario grants privilege to one group, and it needs to be abolished.

 

[guitarchitect]

You need a religion credit to graduate. This is government funded religious indoctrination.

My religion credit (at my catholic High School) was titled "World Religions". There were different religion classes one could take, in a high school with a total of ~300 students. It detailed all the various belief systems around the world - monotheisms, polytheisms, etc. And yes, there was a chapter on Abrahamic faiths and Catholicism got its time in the sun. The class itself is actually what led me down the path to atheism. So, um... I guess your mileage may vary but I'd hardly call that indoctrination. Maybe you're exaggerating just a little bit?

 

[CalgarianExOntarian]

Homogenous was not a brain cramp. Calgary is an ethnically diverse city and there are lots of newcomers from everywhere in the world. But to say that, politically, there is a range of opinions is absurd. The political spectrum in Calgary, at any level of gov't, runs from right-centre-business-friendly to far-right-social-conservative. As you say, Nenshi was in many ways elected by 'mistake' due to vote splitting and many feared his 'socialist' views, and he's a friggin' management consultant! A union-friendly NDPer wouldn't get his mother's vote in Calgary, much less his father-in-law's.

I understand your point now, and mostly agree with it, although I'd say City Council is not all right-centre-business-friendly --- see the recent news story about developers scheming to fund campaigns to replace aldermen they don't like in the next election. Provincial cabinet ministers from Calgary, though, are not a very diverse bunch.

You did write that the electorate (that is, everybody who can vote) was homogeneous, which seemed a weird thing to say. I guess you were actually talking about the politicians who can get elected in most parts of town.

 

[bobbob911]

My religion credit (at my catholic High School) was titled "World Religions". There were different religion classes one could take, in a high school with a total of ~300 students. It detailed all the various belief systems around the world - monotheisms, polytheisms, etc. And yes, there was a chapter on Abrahamic faiths and Catholicism got its time in the sun. The class itself is actually what led me down the path to atheism. So, um... I guess your mileage may vary but I'd hardly call that indoctrination. Maybe you're exaggerating just a little bit?

From the little I know about it it sounds like your school was a bit out of the norm in that respect.

I would be in favor of a school board that was inclusionary to all faiths as an integral component of the curriculum - I can think of no better way to promote tolerance. The parents of the students would have conniptions though...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

From the little I know about it it sounds like your school was a bit out of the norm in that respect.

I would be in favor of a school board that was inclusionary to all faiths as an integral component of the curriculum - I can think of no better way to promote tolerance. The parents of the students would have conniptions though...

Here's an idea. How about no religion in school. I don't want kids to be indoctrinated with this stuff. Parents can send their kids to churches, mosques etc... for that.

 

[bobbob911]

I would be in favor of that too. But, it's not going to happen. Besides, I would think kids that are sent to catholic school get far more indoctrination at home than they do at school.

 

[Tulse]

My religion credit (at my catholic High School) was titled "World Religions". There were different religion classes one could take, in a high school with a total of ~300 students. It detailed all the various belief systems around the world - monotheisms, polytheisms, etc. And yes, there was a chapter on Abrahamic faiths and Catholicism got its time in the sun. The class itself is actually what led me down the path to atheism. So, um... I guess your mileage may vary but I'd hardly call that indoctrination.

Great...so what exactly made this a Catholic school then? In other words, if Catholic schools aren't going to teach the Catholic religion, why have Catholic schools at all? And if they are going to teach the Catholic faith, why fund them publicly?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My religion credit (at my catholic High School) was titled "World Religions". There were different religion classes one could take, in a high school with a total of ~300 students. It detailed all the various belief systems around the world - monotheisms, polytheisms, etc. And yes, there was a chapter on Abrahamic faiths and Catholicism got its time in the sun. The class itself is actually what led me down the path to atheism. So, um... I guess your mileage may vary but I'd hardly call that indoctrination. Maybe you're exaggerating just a little bit?

There will definitely be variances between different schools. But I don't think what I've said was extreme. I know very well what is in these courses. I spent hours formatting allot of the world religion material used at one of the TCDSB schools for my mother and her co-workers (they couldn't figure out how to format a Word doc if her life depended on it), and much of the questions are similar to, "how do you look to God in your daily life". This is consistent with my own experiences back when I took a religion course in the TCDSB. The best way to describe it would be as, publicly funded Sunday school. I don't know how that's not indoctrination.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Great...so what exactly made this a Catholic school then? In other words, if Catholic schools aren't going to teach the Catholic religion, why have Catholic schools at all? And if they are going to teach the Catholic faith, why fund them publicly?

That's the point. These things shouldn't be funded. Transfer the schools to the TDSB, cut TCDSB funding to $0.01 and call it a day. It's against our (the governments) own interests to find them.

 

[ShonTron]

I attended French-Catholic school. HS 'religion' requirement could be filled with any number of theology courses. Mine was 'Religions of the World' - we didn't even talk about Catholicism although the teacher was a devout Catholic.

I went to Catholic elementary and secondary schools (DPRCSSB/DPCDSB) and yep, there was a religion course requirement in elementary school and each of the G9-OAC levels, though at OAC, our school had the tradition of 40 hours of community service (well before the Harris government made it mandatory). The was no choice in what religion credit to take except in fourth year HS. The first two years at HS were straight-up Catholic indoctrination, the third year was Religions of the World, the fourth year, the one I picked, was a Philosophy course.

When Bill Davis extended full funding to Catholic secondary schools, it ended the requirement for a Baptismal Certificate to enroll so there were Muslims, Sikhs, Protestants (even at least one Jew) in my school having to take these classes because it still beat going to BCSS. (There were a few exceptions to that rule, I knew someone who grew up in rural Ontario whose parents were Protestant ministers, but went to Catholic elementary school as it was the only one in the area offering French immersion.)

For me, the forced religion credit was annoying mostly because it used up room that could be filled with more interesting and meaningful credits (I was raised Catholic). And it wasn't until about the end of high school that I personally started to reject my religion. I now consider myself non-religious, non-spiritual agnostic.

John Tory really turned me off with the religious school funding; it was an attempt to pander to non-Catholics, particuarly evangelical Christians and Jews. The right, and politically bold plan would have been to push for the elimination of publicly funded Catholic education, starting with secondary schools and eventually elementary schools. Think of the savings in duplication of board administration and transportation costs, and how much easier it would be to match school capacity to populations. You might feel the wrath from Catholic parents, but it would be the right thing to do.

John Tory didn't show any guts or smarts in 2007, and I can't see myself supporting him now (not that I'm crazy about Stintz or Chow either.)