Rob Ford's Toronto

[Tulse]

you are smarter than your rants suggest. You are a tea-party-type conservative and this forum is dominated by "lefties", so you're just beating your tribal drum. It's understandable. This shouldn't be a partisan war where we cheer "our guy" until the end. The city is at stake. Someone with your philisophy would be a lot better served by another champion of the right. Rob Ford is a reckless idiot. He's a populist. There are smart people who support low taxes and spending. He is not one.

Very well said, Roy G Biv. The thing that depresses me about these kind of exchanges is precisely how tribal they are, even to the point of working against one's own rational best interests.

I consider myself a progressive, but I'm certainly aware that there are plenty of ineffective and/or slimey leftist politicians, and were I faced with the choice of one of them versus a more effective but more conservative alternate candidate, I would go with the latter every time. I just wish that those who supported Ford were more interested in the actual issues and what is best for the city as a whole rather than rallying around one particular person. This kind of tribalism seems very American to me, and very much a recent import into Canada.

 

[malvern2]

I really wish we could have had this debate in person, sometimes the internet isn’t the best way to have these kind of discussions especially when words can be so easily twisted or taken out of context. For the record I came too and have lurked on this forum for years because of an enjoyment of seeing my city grow, and hearing the opinions and views of like-minded development buffs. But somewhere along the way the city that I love has become divided, I grew up in an area of Toronto that’s been long forgotten by politicians, that did nothing but neglect our needs and take our tax money and throw into a black hole of waste. The fact that someone actually stood up and acknowledged that waste was revolutionary.

I live downtown but still keep close ties to my old neighborhood and the anger in burbs is very real, tell me who can come forth and bridge that gap and I will gladly vote for them, until then I stand firmly by the one guy who took on the unions, championed subways in the burbs, tries to cut taxes (i.e. land transfer tax), saves money with things like privatized waste collection and cutting excess jobs at city hall, brings in people to actually run the TTC effectively, and actually gets traffic moving with signal harmonization. Sorry but Adam Vaughn fighting for a patch of grass at U of T isn’t what someone with real problems in North York or Etobikoke or Scarborough care abt, Ford at the very least address issues, faults or no faults.

 

[Hipster Duck]

"He [Mayor Ford] saved me $10,000 in taxes" - A Ford supporter I was talking to a few weeks back. He lives in a small apartment building in Scarborough. When I asked him how you were possibly paying $10,000 in taxes to the City, he mumbled something about the bag tax and vehicle registration fee. He probably heard this $10,000 nonsense on the Rob & Doug Show. Some people in Ford Nation couldn't think objectively if their lives depended on it.

Sad. I always thought there should be a mandatory class, taught to all elementary students, on how to analyze facts and reason through responses. The premise of the class would be that your child would come out of it knowing how to detect bullshit.

For example, that Ford supporter would then be able to deduce that $10,000 in tax savings from plastic bags and a $60 vehicle registration fee means that he would have bought ($10,000 - $60)/$0.05 = 198,800 plastic bags since Ford scrapped the bag fee.

That's a math-based example but there are others that just involve using common sense (like the old "a plane crashed. Where do we bury the survivors?" riddle).

It's not just about being less gullible to manipulative politicians. Reasoning skills can prevent you from being ripped off, enable you to tell if you're being abused or betrayed by your spouse or friends, and are helpful in any task when you're confronted with complex choices. It's one of the most valuable skills you can have.

 

[bobbob911]

enjoyment of seeing my city grow, and hearing the opinions and views of like-minded development buffs.

until then I stand firmly by the one guy who [...] championed subways in the burbs, tries to cut taxes (i.e. land transfer tax)

You have some legitimate points, but how do you, as someone who wants to see the city grow and build infrastructure, support someone who calls for building subways while at the same time doing everything in his power to prevent the funding for doing so? Do you not see that as simply an obstructionist position? Do you really think Rob Ford *actually* wants to build subways?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I live downtown but still keep close ties to my old neighborhood and the anger in burbs is very real, tell me who can come forth and bridge that gap and I will gladly vote for them, until then I stand firmly by the one guy who took on the unions, championed subways in the burbs

About transit: You do realize that Rob Ford's plan would have brought less transit to the suburbs than what was previously proposed. And all the lines would have been grossly under-utilized. Every transit expert I've seen discuss the topic agrees with this. His transit fantasy is practically the definition of boondoggle (I know you Rob Ford types love that word).

Furthermore, all Rob Ford did waas cream about subways for a few weeks. He did little to bring his transit fantasy to life. All he did was meet up with a developer or two, and once they said no to funding the project (as everyone expected) he gave up and called it a day. You'd be much better off voting for someone else if you want those suburban subways.

Of course, Mr. Ford dosen't want any new transit. He just says he does, and puts on a dramatic show so people like you will think he does. Brilliant political strategy.

 

[ShonTron]

"He [Mayor Ford] saved me $10,000 in taxes" - A Ford supporter I was talking to a few weeks back. He lives in a small apartment building in Scarborough. When I asked him how you were possibly paying $10,000 in taxes to the City, he mumbled something about the bag tax and vehicle registration fee. He probably heard this $10,000 nonsense on the Rob & Doug Show. Some people in Ford Nation couldn't think objectively if their lives depended on it.

I'm saving just under $10/month (since January) thanks to a rent reduction notice as the property taxes for the rental property I'm living in dropped. It was nice to send in my cheque for May for $47 less than my usual monthly rent (as that's when I came off a lease) and yeah, it's okay to pay 0.6% less in rent (my landlord has not asked for an increase this year, and was just fine with the adjusted rent payments I've been submitting).

The Fords like to take credit for the rent reduction notices (amongst may things). But that's mostly part of a long-term plan started under Miller to shift some of the tax burden from commercial and multi-story residential properties that were paying more than similar properties outside Toronto on a per-value basis.

Only a multi-property landlord could be saving $10,000 a year in taxes. And much of that credit goes to policies devised before Ford was elected mayor.

 

[gweed123]

I really wish we could have had this debate in person, sometimes the internet isn’t the best way to have these kind of discussions especially when words can be so easily twisted or taken out of context. For the record I came too and have lurked on this forum for years because of an enjoyment of seeing my city grow, and hearing the opinions and views of like-minded development buffs. But somewhere along the way the city that I love has become divided, I grew up in an area of Toronto that’s been long forgotten by politicians, that did nothing but neglect our needs and take our tax money and throw into a black hole of waste. The fact that someone actually stood up and acknowledged that waste was revolutionary.

I live downtown but still keep close ties to my old neighborhood and the anger in burbs is very real, tell me who can come forth and bridge that gap and I will gladly vote for them, until then I stand firmly by the one guy who took on the unions, championed subways in the burbs, tries to cut taxes (i.e. land transfer tax), saves money with things like privatized waste collection and cutting excess jobs at city hall, brings in people to actually run the TTC effectively, and actually gets traffic moving with signal harmonization. Sorry but Adam Vaughn fighting for a patch of grass at U of T isn’t what someone with real problems in North York or Etobikoke or Scarborough care abt, Ford at the very least address issues, faults or no faults.

1) Championing "subways in the burbs" without a coherent plan or a plan to pay for it isn't a plan at all. Ford simply used that as a wedge issue to get elected. He had a whole year with Transit City gone to present a coherent plan with funding. He never came anywhere close.

What I think bugs me the most about Ford transit "plan" was that it did legitimately improve on some of the elements of Transit City that were sub-par. He lobbied for both a Danforth extension and a Sheppard extension. Problem is, he hitched his horse to the wrong wagon. Danforth made sense, Sheppard didn't. And when he was presented with a reasonable compromise plan before the council meeting in Feb 2012, he rejected it immediately. That plan was the best transit plan for Toronto I've seen in decades.

Ford has a complete inability to compromise on anything. It's his way or no way. And what's even worse is once he's made up his mind, no amount of logic or facts can change it. That's a dangerous quality to have if you're a politician, let alone the mayor of a major city. Had Ford have been able to compromise, we would likely have a much better transit plan than what we have now.

2) It isn't Adam Vaughan's job to fight for local Scarborough issues, nor is it a Scarborough councillor's job to fight for grass at U of T. For that matter, nor is it a Scarborough councillor's business to actively lobby to remove bike lanes on Jarvis.

Suburban citizens may feel neglected by City Hall, but downtown citizens are being outweighed about issues in their wards because suburban councillors are voting against their wishes. The vast majority of attempts to make downtown more livable for people in the area are being vetoed by suburbanites, because it would make their drive marginally more difficult.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What I think bugs me the most about Ford transit "plan" was that it did legitimately improve on some of the elements of Transit City that were sub-par. He lobbied for both a Danforth extension and a Sheppard extension. Problem is, he hitched his horse to the wrong wagon. Danforth made sense, Sheppard didn't. And when he was presented with a reasonable compromise plan before the council meeting in Feb 2012, he rejected it immediately. That plan was the best transit plan for Toronto I've seen in decades.

Are you talking about the OneCity Plan?

It. was absolutely brilliant. If Stintz runs for mayor, I'd probably vote for her based on OneCity alone. My heart broke when the plan was canned.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sorry but Adam Vaughn fighting for a patch of grass at U of T isn’t what someone with real problems in North York or Etobikoke or Scarborough care abt, Ford at the very least address issues, faults or no faults

It wasn't like the suburbs are free of debates over inconsequential issues - just look up say the community council agenda and tell me how meaningful some of those items are. I am fairly certain Adam Vaughan is quite on top of things for his ward.

What "issue" did Ford address, exactly? Was transit significantly better? Were the roads less congested? Are the parks better maintained? Are taxes significantly lower? Is the stature of the city in the international scene higher? Is economic development greater?

TTM:

One City is a dog's breakfast of a "plan".

AoD

 

[inyyz]

A perfect example of why we need two mayors. One that addresses the needs of downtown Toronto, and one that serves the wants of the people in the suburbs. Sadly, it was the people in the suburbs who voted the Fords in as Mayor(s).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A perfect example of why we need two mayors. One that addresses the needs of downtown Toronto, and one that serves the wants of the people in the suburbs. Sadly, it was the people in the suburbs who voted the Fords in as Mayor(s).

I don't know. Part of me wants to abolish the mayors position. Council has done a great job running the city without one (Ford dosen't count as a mayor).

 

[gweed123]

Are you talking about the OneCity Plan?

It. was absolutely brilliant. If Stintz runs for mayor, I'd probably vote for her based on OneCity alone. My heart broke when the plan was canned.

The "Stintz Compromise" plan that was tabled about a week before that Council meeting to be specific. There were a few minor tweaks to it when it was relaunched as OneCity a few months later. It was a nearly perfect balance, and what Toronto needed (and still needs).

 

[gweed123]

A perfect example of why we need two mayors. One that addresses the needs of downtown Toronto, and one that serves the wants of the people in the suburbs. Sadly, it was the people in the suburbs who voted the Fords in as Mayor(s).

It's why Toronto (and Ottawa, and Hamilton) need to go back to the two-tiered system. Regional Council (or in Toronto's case, Metro) dealt with higher level issues, while local issues (like bike lanes on Jarvis) would be dealt with at the local level.

 

[DanTheMan]

I stand firmly by the one guy who took on the unions, championed subways in the burbs, tries to cut taxes (i.e. land transfer tax), saves money with things like privatized waste collection and cutting excess jobs at city hall, brings in people to actually run the TTC effectively, and actually gets traffic moving with signal harmonization.

Hate to break it to you, but Ford did more to help the unions than Miller ever did. I'm a member of 416 and I can tell you the vast majority of he union was very happy with the deal. Modest raises, job security for all and really no changes in benefits.... Ya he really stuck it to em. Not to mention the police getting 12%, fire due to get the same from arbitration. The only ones to get the shaft were the city's lowly 850 Paramedics, but that was more to do with 416's incompetence, didn't save the city a dime.

 

[ShonTron]

It's why Toronto (and Ottawa, and Hamilton) need to go back to the two-tiered system. Regional Council (or in Toronto's case, Metro) dealt with higher level issues, while local issues (like bike lanes on Jarvis) would be dealt with at the local level.

Since Jarvis was a Metro road, I wonder if the bike lanes would survive in a two-tier system.