junctionist
Senior Member
There's so much space that you could probably add a right of way by narrowing the lanes and sidewalk. The pedestrian volumes aren't very high at this location.
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Roads: Scarlett Road / CP Rail Bridge EA
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
Towered
Senior Member
Agreed. This design is unambitious and short sighted. How can we provide such feedback?
W. K. Lis
Superstar
smallspy
Senior Member
The underpass is already being built with an allowance for streetcar tracks. There's no need to build the right-of-way now as there's no plan to actually build a streetcar line under there. And frankly, there's nothing that says that it can't be added after.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
From the Lane Widths Guideline, at this link:
The lane widths for the Scarlett Road CP Rail bridge show 3.5 m lane widths for all the lanes. Likely for better truck turning clearance.
TTC Streetcar Routes
Lane widths for lanes used by TTC streetcars should be a minimum width of 3.1 m. Wider lanes are required at locations with horizontal alignment curves. Lane widths should be determined using TTC streetcar vehicle envelopes.
TTC Bus Routes
Lane widths for curb lanes that are part of a TTC bus service route should be a minimum width of 3.3 m. Queue jump lanes and bus stop lay-bys may have a width of 3.3 m where possible and an absolute minimum width of 3.0 m in retrofit scenarios. Planned bus routes that are confirmed to be operational in the near future should also be considered.
Lane Width Dimensions
Through Lane (minimum 3.0 m)
Lane widths for lanes used by TTC streetcars should be a minimum width of 3.1 m. Wider lanes are required at locations with horizontal alignment curves. Lane widths should be determined using TTC streetcar vehicle envelopes.
TTC Bus Routes
Lane widths for curb lanes that are part of a TTC bus service route should be a minimum width of 3.3 m. Queue jump lanes and bus stop lay-bys may have a width of 3.3 m where possible and an absolute minimum width of 3.0 m in retrofit scenarios. Planned bus routes that are confirmed to be operational in the near future should also be considered.
Lane Width Dimensions
Through Lane (minimum 3.0 m)
40 km/h or less: maximum 3.0 m
50 km/h: maximum 3.3 m (target 3.0 m)
60 km/h: maximum 3.5 m (target 3.0 m)
Curb Lane (minimum 3.0 m)50 km/h: maximum 3.3 m (target 3.0 m)
60 km/h: maximum 3.5 m (target 3.0 m)
40 - 50 km/h: maximum 3.5 m (target 3.3 m)
60 km/h: maximum 3.5 m (target 3.5 m)
60 km/h: maximum 3.5 m (target 3.5 m)
crs1026
Senior Member
The lane widths may not be the limiting factor. That intersection has a curious geometry. It never feels quite 'square' when one drives through it. I wonder if the turning clearance is sufficient for streetcars especially for an east to north to east turn. Will the carbody hang up in the middle on the south pillar turning onto Scarlett (radius too tight), and will the rear end connect with the north pillar when the car pivots onto St Clair? As noted, when trucks take that corner it's a tricky manouever.
My impression is that Flexities don't swing outwards at the ends the way a CLRV does, but the standard for TTC vehicles needs to allow for potential future vehicles which may have CLRV-like truck centers and overhang at the ends.
All of this is sidewalk conjecture but it would be reassuring to hear the engineers confirm thay have that covered.
- Paul
My impression is that Flexities don't swing outwards at the ends the way a CLRV does, but the standard for TTC vehicles needs to allow for potential future vehicles which may have CLRV-like truck centers and overhang at the ends.
All of this is sidewalk conjecture but it would be reassuring to hear the engineers confirm thay have that covered.
- Paul
DonValleyRainbow
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You seem sure of this, yet it is not reflected in the documents. What needs to be made clear is if the City has protected enough space. If not, why would you go in twice if you don't have to, especially for a heavy railway underpass still currently used by freight trains?
I'm going to ask around on this.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Gooch Avenue is getting its own traffic signal. Will Gooch Avenue get its own phase or will it be incorporated into the Scarlett Road phase? Overall, the traffic signal phases will need big time tweaking once the new intersections (plural) open.
smallspy
Senior Member
Check the EA documents. They clearly stated (and demonstrated in the accompanying drawings) that the inner two lanes were being built with room to allow for streetcar tracks to be installed at some unknown future date. It's just like what was done with the Dufferin underpass.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
DonValleyRainbow
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The old EA documents, yes. Not the latest boards though.
drum118
Superstar
Check TTC website the past few years and you will find info there stating the bridge was to be design for streetcars and was assure by the city that allowance was been made for it.
How can there be provision for the streetcar now when there is no EA or tracks west of Gunns Loop to the many x the line could go?? Even before the 512 can be extended, the whole road has to be widen and rebuilt.
At the rate the city moves, you be lucky to see an extension built to this bridge before 2040. Until then, traffic will use the streetcar lane that will be in mix traffic in the first place, not an ROW.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The 512 ST. CLAIR could be split at the Gunns Loop. Every other streetcar would short turn at Gunns Loop, with the alternate continuing in mixed traffic west of Symes Road (2 blocks west of Gunns Road). The alternating streetcar would still have more frequent headways than the 71A RUNNYMEDE or 79B SCARLETT ROAD buses.
smallspy
Senior Member
The latest boards show the construction of the project though, not the design of the structure or the reasoning for the particular lane widths. The EA does.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
