Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[innsertnamehere]

Yeah, I would not be surprised if Transurban were looking for another city to make lots of money from.

They've just finished covering (well, the underneath of) Sydney in new motorways - WestConnex. 33 kilometres of new tunnels that have been been heavily criticised - of course they're heavily tolled (around $10 Canadian for cars, at least 3x more for trucks - and the toll rises at 4% or inflation whichever is higher) ! Good article about them here.

The Rozelle Interchange is honestly impressive underground spaghetti!
View attachment 538496

The problem about expanding the capacity of the 401 is this! Road widening is not the solution... in my opinion, road pricing is one way to reduce the vehicles on the road - but good luck finding politicians who will vote for that!
View attachment 538497

For comparison- a tunnel from the 427 to, say, the 404 would be about 20km. So smaller than WestConnnex. It wouldn’t be unprecedented globally.

WestConnex was a $20 billion AUD program, about $17b CAD. Australias road tunnelling expertise is at another level compared to Canada however so I suspect that pricing wouldn’t transfer that much.

I think the nature of a massive road tunnel is that much like WestConnex, local accesses to the highway will be limited. If the tunnel can be aimed at regional traffic, not commuting traffic, I think it could work. Limit exits to interchanges with other freeways only. 427-400-404, and that’s it, could do well to allow regional trucking and inter regional trips move better without people driving from Keele to their job at Yonge.

Regarding WestConnex’s tolls - $11 AUD is $1~$9.70 CAD. For 33km of tunnel, that works out to a toll rate of less than 1/2 of the 407ETR.

 

[turini2]

The other thing that worries me about companies like Transurban, given what they've been doing in Sydney and Brisbane - is that it's urban highways 2.0.

They just happen to be underground, thereby "solving" the problem of needing to demolish vast swathes of inner city housing to build highways. A pro-car politician can happily support the project, knowing that they won't have locals protesting. I don't want the Spadina Expressway (or any other expressway!) to return from the dead, just because "putting a highway in a tunnel makes it okay".

In my personal opinion, we should be removing highways from cities - not building more.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I believe this may be a rumoured tunneled widening of the 401 through Central Toronto. The PCs had some telephone polling on it a while ago, apparently in partnership with Transurban, an Australian company which has built many of the tunneled highways in Australia. Transurban already operates a toll bridge in Montreal, so they do have a presence here.

I imagine it would be tolled to finance it as it would be ridiculously expensive.

I also wouldn't put too much stock into it actually happening as it would be insanely expensive and likely not supported by other parties, which would be basically required to get it to construction, unless the PCs have an illustriously long term in government.

With regards to funding levels for roads - Ford is actually spending about the same as Wynne did on the provincial highway network ($2.8 billion annually). He just likes to advertise it a lot more.

Why tunnel though? I remember some proposals from a decade plus back of stacking the 401. I.e. Collector lanes on ground level, Express elevated (or something like that). Ford here is showing his blue conservative roots. Road congestion? Build more lanes! Hopefully he doesn't think that the Ontario line should be sufficient to placate those who want public transit.

 

[darth_freeman]

The other thing that worries me about companies like Transurban, given what they've been doing in Sydney and Brisbane - is that it's urban highways 2.0.

They just happen to be underground, thereby "solving" the problem of needing to demolish vast swathes of inner city housing to build highways. A pro-car politician can happily support the project, knowing that they won't have locals protesting. I don't want the Spadina Expressway (or any other expressway!) to return from the dead, just because "putting a highway in a tunnel makes it okay".

In my personal opinion, we should be removing highways from cities - not building more.

The context of the tunnel would be express movement across the city (not into it) though. Transit goes into the city and Ontario is spending about 3x on transit than on highways.

 

[turini2]

The context of the tunnel would be express movement across the city (not into it) though. Transit goes into the city and Ontario is spending about 3x on transit than on highways.

Yes I agree in this particular case it would be "express 401" - I just don't want Transurban getting any ideas!

 

[Undead]

The stat he threw out in his speech about the population of Ontario being projected to soon surpass the population of New York state is mind-boggling.

I think the assumption here is if the Feds keep pumping 3-4% annual population growth into the country, we reach NY State's population in 6-8 years.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I think the assumption here is if the Feds keep pumping 3-4% annual population growth into the country, we reach NY State's population in 6-8 years.

New York has 3.5 million more than Ontario right now, and that's shrinking on both sides with NYS losing population and Ontario rapidly adding. I suspect Canada's 1+ million annual population growth isn't going to last, but I also think Ontario is only ~15 years from passing NYS.

Yes I agree in this particular case it would be "express 401" - I just don't want Transurban getting any ideas!

Given the immense expense of adding local accesses to tunneled expressways - I suspect it'll be kept to a "super express" type corridor. There is enough trans-regional traffic through the GTA that the tunnel would be well used without inducing too many local auto trips.

Of course this is all predicated on Ontario actually proposing it.. right now it's all rumour.

 

[Haljackey]

Wouldn't that essentially be the Midtown corridor?

The only widening of the 401 in Toronto that I would support is the portion of the highway between the 427 and 409. Turn it into a collectors/ express setup to match the rest of the highway. Widening or tunneling any other portion of the 401 in Toronto is just overkill.

Ya right now the best bang for your buck is to widen the bottle-necked stretches. 427 to 409 is top priority for sure, but there are also other weird lane drops in places like the WB collectors at Yonge where you only have 2 lanes to Hogg's Hollow bridge. I'm not saying a entirely new bridge is needed to fix that (although it would help with repair/maintenance if one bridge could be completely shut), but a rework of that interchange could see 3 collectors pushed through.
-You could also simply take out the Yonge to 401 WB ramp entirely and foce traffic to the loop ramp with a left turn. That would not be good for traffic on Yonge but it gets the 401 WB 3 through lanes on the collectors.

Crude imagery of what I mean

.

The Yonge Overpass would also need to be extended out a bit to fit the extra collector lane, or shoulder cannibalized. You could also reduce the radius of the loop and build a new parallel bridge, with merge room for the onramp between the Yonge overpass and Hogg's Hollow bridge.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

-----

Under Allen there are also only 2 EB collector lanes running through. If you cannibalized the shoulder you might be able to fit 3 tight lanes under the Allen to 401 EB express ramp, or that flyover would need a rebuild.

The section I am referring to.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

-----

Fixing these would give you a minimum of 3 collector and 3 express lanes throughout Toronto proper (along with adding them between 427 and 409).

Outside of Toronto limits, It's insanity that the lane drops between Salem and the 412 have not been fixed yet. You go from 5 each way down to 3 just before a major interchange... get those lost lanes extended a tiny bit so they become dedicated exit/entrance lanes for the (now toll free) 412. This is a stupid, easily fixable bottleneck that can snarl traffic for EB traffic for many KMs.
-I know the collector/express system is proposed to expanded to the 412, but this is would work in the interim.

 

[Fritter]

Yes I agree in this particular case it would be "express 401" - I just don't want Transurban getting any ideas!

I'll be the troll that gives Transurban ideas.
Tunneled Spadina Expressway completion.
Just kidding, but I could see it as a possibility considered by the Ford Government.

 

[Northern Light]

Ya right now the best bang for your buck is to widen the bottle-necked stretches. 427 to 409 is top priority for sure, but there are also other weird lane drops in places like the WB collectors at Yonge where you only have 2 lanes to Hogg's Hollow bridge. I'm not saying a entirely new bridge is needed to fix that (although it would help with repair/maintenance if one bridge could be completely shut), but a rework of that interchange could see 3 collectors pushed through.
-You could also simply take out the Yonge to 401 WB ramp entirely and foce traffic to the loop ramp with a left turn. That would not be good for traffic on Yonge but it gets the 401 WB 3 through lanes on the collectors.

Crude imagery of what I mean

.

The Yonge Overpass would also need to be extended out a bit to fit the extra collector lane, or shoulder cannibalized. You could also reduce the radius of the loop and build a new parallel bridge, with merge room for the onramp between the Yonge overpass and Hogg's Hollow bridge.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

-----

Under Allen there are also only 2 EB collector lanes running through. If you cannibalized the shoulder you might be able to fit 3 tight lanes under the Allen to 401 EB express ramp, or that flyover would need a rebuild.

The section I am referring to.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

-----

Fixing these would give you a minimum of 3 collector and 3 express lanes throughout Toronto proper (along with adding them between 427 and 409).

Outside of Toronto limits, It's insanity that the lane drops between Salem and the 412 have not been fixed yet. You go from 5 each way down to 3 just before a major interchange... get those lost lanes extended a tiny bit so they become dedicated exit/entrance lanes for the (now toll free) 412. This is a stupid, easily fixable bottleneck that can snarl traffic for EB traffic for many KMs.
-I know the collector/express system is proposed to expanded to the 412, but this is would work in the interim.

The City and MTO have had extensive discussions on a complete re-work of the Yonge/401 interchange.

Its a very expensive matter, and one the MTO wants the City to foot either all or the majority of the bill for, as the City has been aiming to make Yonge here less hostile to pedestrians/cyclists.

The budget is ~200M

 

[Undead]

New York has 3.5 million more than Ontario right now, and that's shrinking on both sides with NYS losing population and Ontario rapidly adding. I suspect Canada's 1+ million annual population growth isn't going to last, but I also think Ontario is only ~15 years from passing NYS.

I think it'll be much sooner than that. Assuming two more years of high numbers under Trudeau (4% annual) and then a greatly reduced rate under a new government (2% annual), we reach NY State's current population 8 years from now.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'll be the troll that gives Transurban ideas.
Tunneled Spadina Expressway completion.
Just kidding, but I could see it as a possibility considered by the Ford Government.

Tunneled Gardiner Express way

 

[ericmacm]

I think the assumption here is if the Feds keep pumping 3-4% annual population growth into the country, we reach NY State's population in 6-8 years.

To be fair, I think it’s a safe assumption to work with at this time. New York’s population is estimated to have declined by around 630k since 2020, whereas we have apparently grown by around 800k over the last year according to Doug’s speech, so we will very likely eclipse them by the end of the decade.

It’s better to work with the assumption of growth in the future anyway regardless of what happens with the federal government. Ontario assumed that we would experience a population plateau in the early 2010s, planned accordingly, and laid the foundation for many of the problems we are experiencing today.

I really hope to see an increasing amount of this growth and investment directed away from the GTA in the future. The mid-sized cities are gaining momentum and will need more road and transit investment so they can continue their trajectories.

 

[Rainforest]

I'll disagree. Sheppard, as currently envisioned, builds out as Downsview Park/Sheppard West to McCowan (though I think may end up a bit further east); probably in the late 2030s at the earliest.

A GO line on the 401 would extend at least to Pearson in the west, and intersect GO KW, while heading to Pickering GO in the east, so it covers a larger catchment and more regional trips.

Even where 'duplicating' Sheppard, it would likely have 1/3 the number of stops, and much shorter trip times for those covering extended distances.

There is clearly a great deal of demand in a corridor that is North America's highest volume stretch of freeway at 16-20 lanes of traffic. If GO could, replace even 25% of that demand, the benefits would be enormous.

***

To be clear, I don't expect GO - 401 to happen, at least in the near term; I do expect Sheppard will go first. I just don't think its an inherently bad idea.

I get your reasoning. But on the other hand, a GO line that entirely follows the 401 would not have a good connection to the Yonge subway. It would be hard to add a Yonge subway station under the 401, and equally hard to divert the GO line to York Mills or Sheppard and then get it back.

Therefore, I am thinking of a hybrid solution: Sheppard subway through the central part of the city, then swinging inside the 401 corridor in the east and west and running as a surface GO line that happens to use TTC subway rolling stock. Not every Sheppard train needs to serve the 401 sections, most of trains could operate in the central section only, perhaps just 1 out of 3 or 4 trains serving the whole length.

That hybrid line would have a high speed (wide stop spacing) in the outer sections, and very good transit connections (at the price of closer stop spacing and somewhat lower speed) in the central section.

And, it would be electrified by design

 

[Northern Light]

I get your reasoning. But on the other hand, a GO line that entirely follows the 401 would not have a good connection to the Yonge subway. It would be hard to add a Yonge subway station under the 401, and equally hard to divert the GO line to York Mills or Sheppard and then get it back.

A Yonge/401 infill station was already contemplated by TTC on the north side of the interchange, going back at least as far as the east side of Yonge's time as the Maclean-Hunter building. Its not particularly complicated to drop the GO line into a tunnel at a limited number of locations so a station can be built just outside the highway ROW and better serve a regional destination point. It certainly adds costs, but I would contend those could be reasonable, if well chosen and designed.

Therefore, I am thinking of a hybrid solution: Sheppard subway through the central part of the city, then swinging inside the 401 corridor in the east and west and running as a surface GO line that happens to use TTC subway rolling stock. Not every Sheppard train needs to serve the 401 sections, most of trains could operate in the central section only, perhaps just 1 out of 3 or 4 trains serving the whole length.

That hybrid line would have a high speed (wide stop spacing) in the outer sections, and very good transit connections (at the price of closer stop spacing and somewhat lower speed) in the central section.

And, it would be electrified by design

I don't see that happening.