Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[spider]

I used an HOV lane for the first time yesterday. Southbound at 3 pm on the 404 at Steeles I said to my wife let's try the HOV lane, so we did.

Big mistake, we were only travelling at about 110kph, not nearly fast enough for the half dozen cars that piled up behind us very rapidly looking for a more NASCAR like velocity. Every one of them solved the problem by passing us on the right across the solid lines and recrossing said lines again to regain the HOV lane without that annoying car doing only 10 over the speed limit. I am not sure, what with keeping my eyes on the road, but I think at least 2 of these 6 cars had no passengers on board to qualify them for the use of the HOV lanes.

Rather than causing an accident by obeying the law we transferred out of the HOV lanes at the first legal opportunity.

 

[PinkLucy]

I love the HOV lanes, but yeah, they generally move at 120 minimum

 

[innsertnamehere]

I used an HOV lane for the first time yesterday. Southbound at 3 pm on the 404 at Steeles I said to my wife let's try the HOV lane, so we did.

Big mistake, we were only travelling at about 110kph, not nearly fast enough for the half dozen cars that piled up behind us very rapidly looking for a more NASCAR like velocity. Every one of them solved the problem by passing us on the right across the solid lines and recrossing said lines again to regain the HOV lane without that annoying car doing only 10 over the speed limit. I am not sure, what with keeping my eyes on the road, but I think at least 2 of these 6 cars had no passengers on board to qualify them for the use of the HOV lanes.

Rather than causing an accident by obeying the law we transferred out of the HOV lanes at the first legal opportunity.

That is just the times we live in. Almost all highways are built for safe travel at 120km/h (and thus most people do that speed), but the government keeps it artificially low for unknown reasons. (it is partially excusable on urban freeways due to the frequent interchanges, but HOV is limited access so it doesn't really matter)

I swear by them too. if only the DVP could get them, even if just to below Eglinton after most of the traffic clears up. I love to fly by traffic on the 404, but as soon as they end and go from 4+1 lanes (HOV) to 2 lanes over the 401, it becomes a parking lot.

 

[rbt]

but the government keeps it artificially low for unknown reasons.

I assume it is legal related. If they boosted the limit and accidents increased, they could be liable in some way or another.

Barrie has a bad habit of hosting 100+ car pile ups on highway 400. That could be an expensive class action even if the government won in court.

 

[innsertnamehere]

that has more to do with the fact that the 400 is a 3 lane highway when it handles 120,000 cars a day, with even larger crush loads on weekends. It badly needs to be at least 4 laned, probably 5 laned until the 11 split.

 

[Haljackey]

Funny thing is many studies show that higher speed limits on controlled-access highways are safer. Going 100 can lead to distracted driving, especially because you feel slow driving on a road designed for 130 (which nearly all 400-series highways are).

If for example the speed limit is 130, you should feel much comfortable because you are doing the design speed. Also going at that speed pretty much forces you to remain in control of your car at all times, reducing distracted driving.

that has more to do with the fact that the 400 is a 3 lane highway when it handles 120,000 cars a day, with even larger crush loads on weekends. It badly needs to be at least 4 laned, probably 5 laned until the 11 split.

400 is planned to be 8+2HOV to Barrie. Some of the overpasses are being replaced now to prepare for this widening (the are near their design life's end anyway). Not sure where in Barrie however. Ideally it would be at the 11 split but I doubt it will be widened much up to this point.

 

[jamincan]

I know they are currently studying relocating or rebuilding Hwy 11 between Orillia and Barrie to get rid of all the local access. I believe they are also planning on expanding it to 6 lanes in that stretch as well.

 

[James]

Even though I typically drive 110 kph, I'd say 110 kph on the Hwy 404 HOV lane is going to be bottlenecking a lot of people. If I have passengers and traffic is flowing at a decent pace, I don't even bother going in that HOV lane.

My one big beef about HOV lanes is that I'd say about 50% of the time, single drivers are the ones occupying these lanes! I lost count how many people with 1 person in the car were bypassing everyone else on the 404 during times of heavy traffic. Where are the officers? Why isn't it enforced? If it's not enforced, what's the point? Why not just make that lane available to everyone?

I actually wrote a letter to the MTO about this some time ago and received a pleasant letter stating that those people should not be using that lane, they do their best to monitor and enforce, yadda yadda...As far as I can tell, nothing's ever changed. I've never seen anyone get a ticket for driving in an HOV lane. Ever.

 

[spider]

So the consensus is if you are not ready to drive at least 20 kph over the limit you are disqualified from using the HOV lanes.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So the consensus is if you are not ready to drive at least 20 kph over the limit you are disqualified from using the HOV lanes.

no, but rather that you shouldn't be surprised nor get angry at others that are doing 120-130, as that is in fact a completely safe speed to be doing on 400 series highways. Passing you by cutting in and out when you aren't allowed to is a jerk move though, I must admit.

I know they are currently studying relocating or rebuilding Hwy 11 between Orillia and Barrie to get rid of all the local access. I believe they are also planning on expanding it to 6 lanes in that stretch as well.

It needs to be rebuilt all the way to Gravenhurst and the entirety of the highway renamed to highway 411, it is way too unsafe currently. Doesn't need to be 6 laned the entire way, but 35-55,000 cars every day is way too much for a RIRO highway, and when they barrel past doing 110km/h there is simply no safe way to enter the highway in any other way other than an interchange with that level of traffic. the lack of proper shoulders seriously steps up the danger factor as well. Heck, the Highway 35 RIRO needs to be replaced as well, I just get uneasy with those types of highways unless they handle under 15,000 cars daily. But alas, this is one of 6 or 7 projects that the MTO very badly needs to address, and only so much can be done. (others including adding a lane to the 404 over the 401, the 417 extension, the 400 widening, and the highway 7 twinning between Waterloo and Guelph)

 

[Haljackey]

There is a website / special interest group lobbying the government to increase the speed limit of the 400 series highways: http://www.stop100.ca/

Also remember that before metric conversion they were 70 MPH, or 113 KM/h. Since they are designed for 130, very little would need to be done to improve the highways other than making new speed signs.
-Through cities the speed limit could be lower, and there are places where the design speed is lower such as the 403 through Hamilton (posted at 90).

Since metric conversion, cars are safer and more fuel efficient so there isn't much of an argument to keep them as low as they are now. In fact Ontario has one of the lowest controlled-access highway speed limits in the world, and our highways are actually well designed compared to many other places, including those with higher speed limits.

 

[Mulder]

Funny thing is many studies show that higher speed limits on controlled-access highways are safer. Going 100 can lead to distracted driving, especially because you feel slow driving on a road designed for 130 (which nearly all 400-series highways are).

If for example the speed limit is 130, you should feel much comfortable because you are doing the design speed. Also going at that speed pretty much forces you to remain in control of your car at all times, reducing distracted driving.

400 is planned to be 8+2HOV to Barrie. Some of the overpasses are being replaced now to prepare for this widening (the are near their design life's end anyway). Not sure where in Barrie however. Ideally it would be at the 11 split but I doubt it will be widened much up to this point.

There is a website / special interest group lobbying the government to increase the speed limit of the 400 series highways: http://www.stop100.ca/

Also remember that before metric conversion they were 70 MPH, or 113 KM/h. Since they are designed for 130, very little would need to be done to improve the highways other than making new speed signs.
-Through cities the speed limit could be lower, and there are places where the design speed is lower such as the 403 through Hamilton (posted at 90).

Since metric conversion, cars are safer and more fuel efficient so there isn't much of an argument to keep them as low as they are now. In fact Ontario has one of the lowest controlled-access highway speed limits in the world, and our highways are actually well designed compared to many other places, including those with higher speed limits.

Ok, then when does it stop? Highway Engineers and MTO over design roads for a reason. Believe it or not it's a liability issue. We can't have people going 10km/h over the limit and getting in accidents?
I'd support a move up to 110. But anything higher means we need stricter speed limit enforcement, as well as laws that say the slower person must move the the right hand lane. We can't have people going 150 in a posted zone of 130, getting a slap on the wrist fine. People will eventually get used to going 120/130 as well and get "distracted"

There is also still plenty of areas on the 401 between Toronto Montreal which don't meet 120km/h standards, unprotected rock cuts in clearzones, one curve that I can think off. Narrow lanes and no shoulders.

They've done lots of clear zone rock cutting between Belleville -> Kingston. And expansion from Montreal Road in Kingston to Highway 15 will be done in 4 years.

 

[Haljackey]

At 100, its easy for people to do 20 or 30 over the limit.

At 120, I think very few people will do more than 10 over the limit. Once you're going 130, driver concentration is pretty much mandatory. Most roads in Europe are 130 and very few go beyond that. In the US some highways are now 80-85MPH (over 130 km/h) and again few go more than 5MPH over this limit.

I think 120 would work well for rural sections. In urban areas maybe 110, with collectors still posted at 100. And of course sections of highway not up to spec would not be posted as high either.

 

[innsertnamehere]

yes, no point upgrading highways that aren't up to code. as the 401 is widened to 6 lanes it will be slowly brought up to 130km/h design speed anyways.

What is the 400 extensions design speed? does anyone know?

 

[Bojaxs]

I thinking bumping the speed limit up to 110km/h is a good, happy medium.

I'll feel like less of a criminal when I'm driving down the QEW or 403 at 120km/h. I honestly believe that if we bump the speed limit up to 120km/h we'll have drivers flying by us at 140 or even 150km/h.

I think the 403 in Mississauga and QEW in Oakville/Burlington would be the best place to test a new 110km/h speed limit. More work needs to be done on the 401 and the QEW before they can raise the speed limit on those highways. Large stretches of the QEW in Mississauga still don't have the "Ontario tall wall". The QEW through Dixie is a dump.