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Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

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That thread starts out as a discussion of the DVP to Gardiner connection.

If the thread was later highjacked, you condone continuing that?

This thread was about an upcoming meeting for the EA. Presumably a key discussion of that, is that problems that are going to be created, by having a 12-lane University Avenue road through the area. Yet you shunt that to a thread about a ramp between two expressways, because you think it is off-topic??

That's twisted ...
 
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Gardiner Takedown

Meeting report:

At the meeting people voted to push to a 4-lane roadway to replace the Gardiner Expressway similar to Seoul's replacing a 14 lane highway with a 4 lane roadway and semi-restored river.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/nov/01/society.travelsenvironmentalimpact
People voted for Marty Collier's recommendation to join the Toronto Urban Renewal Network (TURN). http://torenewal.ca/
Of course group and/ or individual positions may change in the future.

Roger Brook
 
Hey i like this idea.:) I was not aware there was other options, other than tearing that section down.

replacement of the Gardiner (with a tunnel or reconstructed freeway above the rail corridor) and elimination of the elevated roadway east of Jarvis (at a rough cost of $200-million to $300-million).


Toronto council to debate future of Gardiner

From The Globe and Mail news
Jennifer Lewington
Toronto — Monday, Jun. 01, 2009


A decision on what to do with the eastern leg of Toronto's Gardiner Expressway – keep it, tear it down or revamp it – is at least three years away.

But Tuesday, the next baby steps to reach that decision are set to play out at Toronto city council's executive committee when it debates the proposed parameters for an environmental review.

“We've established a blueprint for the future,” says John Campbell, CEO of Waterfront Toronto, which acts for the city, the province and the federal government and carried out public consultations on the draft terms of reference earlier this spring.

The agency has already tipped its hat in favour of a partial tear-down of the roadway east of Jarvis to create a multilane waterfront boulevard. One estimate is that this option could add another two minutes to car travel time from east-end Toronto to downtown.

But the $7.8-million environmental assessment, approved by city council last year and to be carried out by consultants for Waterfront Toronto and the city, is officially neutral on the four possible alternatives under review.

These range from keeping the status quo (with $50-million over the next 10 years for upkeep and repairs), improvements to the existing expressway (such as better connections for pedestrian, car and transit flow to Lake Shore Boulevard), replacement of the Gardiner (with a tunnel or reconstructed freeway above the rail corridor) and elimination of the elevated roadway east of Jarvis (at a rough cost of $200-million to $300-million).

Earlier Monday, the waterfront agency outlined its goals for the study, which include looking at the impact of any changes on car drivers and other commuters, efforts to revitalize the waterfront and reconnect the city to the water's edge and the potential future development of land near the expressway.

City councillor Gloria Lindsay Luby (Ward 4, Etobicoke Centre), whose constituents include west-end drivers who use the expressway, says “I hope the fix is not in” for a take-down of the Gardiner. Her preferred option is to keep the existing freeway, but beautify the structure and make better use of the land beneath it.

A member of the executive committee controlled by Mayor David Miller, Ms. Lindsay Luby wants a full cost-benefit analysis of all the options in the provincial environment assessment, scheduled to be completed by December, 2011.

Waterfront Toronto has pledged to include the public in consultations in the months ahead through a http://www.gardinerconsultation.ca .
 
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Had a use of a car for the weekend and did some video shot and the eastbound trip on the Gardiner was one of them
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/644680

Gardiner: Ugly or essential?

Vanessa Lu
John Spears
CITY HALL BUREAU

The fate of the Gardiner Expressway again hangs in the balance.

Yesterday Toronto's executive committee voted to go ahead with the terms of an environmental assessment – expected to take at least two more years and cost close to $8 million – to study every possible option with the elevated highway, including: do nothing, fix it, or remove it. The assessment should be completed in late 2011.

Mayor David Miller, who made it clear he wants to see the elevated expressway removed between Jarvis and the Don Valley Parkway, emphasized that yesterday's vote merely endorses a study that council already okayed in principle last summer. It now goes to city council for final approval in July.

The mere mention of tearing down the Gardiner, of course, brings out passionate and oppositional views: Some want to remove the eyesore now to help spur waterfront revitalization; commuters complain about potential traffic nightmares; and urbanists rip out their hair in frustration that all anyone ever seems to do about the Gardiner is talk about it.

James Alcock, who years ago opposed the destruction of the old Gardiner stump east of the DVP, called that "a huge mistake."

"And if they take it down west of the DVP it's going to be even worse," he said.

"Traffic's far worse than if they'd left it up," said Alcock, who drives downtown from Scarborough. "You should try making a left turn onto Carlaw or onto Leslie. It's terrible, the lineups are awful."

But Masudur Laskar, 45, an accountant who lives one block north of the Gardiner at Lower Jarvis and the Esplanade, said there would be definite advantages to ripping the Gardiner down.

"If they could make a park and plant lots of trees, it would be great. I could take my son there," Laskar said. "It should be something natural; if they demolish the Gardiner we could have a lake view."

Miller, who was in South Korea two weeks ago to chair a climate-change conference, pointed to Seoul's experience with removing a double-decker expressway there. The feared traffic jams never materialized.

"I'm personally confident, after seeing what other cities are doing, the opportunity on our waterfront is enormous," he said, urging councillors to be brave.

Paul Bedford, Toronto's former chief planner, also pointed to Seoul's experience as an example of courageous urban planning. He said Toronto should continue dismantling the Gardiner, and move forward.

"Talk about being timid here, you know ... when the rest of the civilized world is taking down entire expressways," Bedford said.

The assessment will include more public input and consider the impact on traffic, including along the Richmond and Adelaide off-ramps from the DVP.

The price tag is still to be determined but early estimates put it at as much as $300 million over four years.

"There is an immense opportunity now, and we have to make this decision now, to revitalize our waterfront," Miller said, noting that the original waterfront plans called for removing the elevated expressway entirely.

"The opportunity is there today, and it won't be in the future because the Gardiner will be surrounded by buildings."

Plans for the area affected include the West Donlands development, a mixed-use community that features affordable housing.

"If our initial projections are wrong about the traffic, then perhaps the city council which will be elected in 2010 will consider things differently than this one did," Miller said. "It will be in their hands."

Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong argued that the opinions of the 120,000 drivers who use that section east of Jarvis every day will not be counted.

"My constituents are opposed to tearing down the Gardiner Expressway," said Minnan-Wong, who represents the Don Mills area. "If you ask just the people who live near that community, you're going to get one answer. If you're dismissive of all the motorists who have to use the road every single day, you are doing a disservice to them and disservice to the city."

Eric Miller, director of the Cities Centre at the University of Toronto, said the focus had stayed too long on the Gardiner. Waterfront revitalization, he said, could occur without spending money to bury it, a road to replace it might also prove a barrier, and there are other barriers in the way, especially the train tracks in and out of Union Station.

"When we're scrambling to find billions of dollars for transit," he said, "to spend millions of dollars to remove the Gardiner and at best replace the auto capacity, when we haven't put the transit in place, I just can't get worked up about that."

*****

Miller, who was in South Korea two weeks ago to chair a climate-change conference, pointed to Seoul's experience with removing a double-decker expressway there. The feared traffic jams never materialized.

"I'm personally confident, after seeing what other cities are doing, the opportunity on our waterfront is enormous," he said, urging councillors to be brave.

Paul Bedford, Toronto's former chief planner, also pointed to Seoul's experience as an example of courageous urban planning. He said Toronto should continue dismantling the Gardiner, and move forward.

Interesting that the man who pushed Seoul's Cheonggyecheong project, mayor Lee Myung-Bak, is now the President of South Korea. He's taking a hardline stance against North Korea, and has been accused of driving ex-president Roh Moo-hyun to his recent suicide. Maybe that's the courage we need to take down the Gardiner!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Myung-bak
 
Can't build a house without blueprints... can't take down a highway without studying what will happen.

How did thing get built in the past considering there were no plans back then?? Done by trial and error.

We know what will happen if we take the Gardiner down without doing a study.

Lack of will power is stopping the Gardiner take down as well a vision what Toronto Waterfront can be without cars, let alone Toronto Downtown.

At the same time, investment is needed for transit to do this.

Studys only put things off and increase cost.
 
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^ But, one should not reasonably expect shovels to be in the ground tomorrow. Just read the Toronto Star comment sections and you'll find a ton of people who have that expectation.
 
^ But, one should not reasonably expect shovels to be in the ground tomorrow. Just read the Toronto Star comment sections and you'll find a ton of people who have that expectation.

Even the expectation for transit to be up and running in weeks is unreal. Some think transit can go to the store and buy buses or streetcars off the shelf. They are surprise how long it will to get one as well finding driver for them.

They are surprised what has to take place before that shovel goes into the ground.
 
Even the expectation for transit to be up and running in weeks is unreal. Some think transit can go to the store and buy buses or streetcars off the shelf. They are surprise how long it will to get one as well finding driver for them.

They are surprised what has to take place before that shovel goes into the ground.

Exactly my point. Glad we can agree :)
 
Even the expectation for transit to be up and running in weeks is unreal. Some think transit can go to the store and buy buses or streetcars off the shelf. They are surprise how long it will to get one as well finding driver for them.

They are surprised what has to take place before that shovel goes into the ground.

Yeah i agree, but there are places that do it better, faster, with less politics than others, and yes Toronto the Centre of the Universe is not one of them to get things done quick.:rolleyes:
 
Hopfully not a repost:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/652918

A roof on the Gardiner?

Jun 18, 2009 11:37 AM
Vanessa Lu
City Hall Bureau Chief

A local architect thinks it is a good idea to add a roof to the Gardiner Expressway that could be turned into a park with trees, bike paths and concession stands – while cars would zip along underneath.

The plan comes from Les Klein, founding principal at Quadrangle Architects, unveiled this morning at Moses Znaimer's ideaCity, the annual conference of thinkers.

Klein's firm is best known for taking old buildings and giving them new life. Examples include the BMW showroom near the Don Valley Parkway and 299 Queen St. W., the CHUM-Citytv building.

"I've been appalled at the folly of taking down the Gardiner," Klein told the Star in advance of his speech. "It's about thinking innovatively, keeping it, adding on to it, renovating it, and renewing it. That's the fundamental part of the organic growth of cities."

His idea, dubbed the Green Ribbon, calls for the addition of a new level about 8 metres above the highway's elevated section from Dufferin St. to the Don Valley Parkway. Columns would be added to the side to anchor a new level,which would become a linear park stretching for 7 kilometres. The estimated costs range from $500 million to $600 million.

"I happen to love old structures. I'm not in love with every old structure. They have to have good bones, but the Gardiner has great bones," Klein said, noting it is also a critical traffic artery that hundreds of commuters depend on daily.

Over the years, various ideashave been floated for the expressway, which first opened in 1965 and was namedfor former Metro Toronto chair Fred Gardiner. While some have advocated for its teardown, calling it an eyesore and a barrier to the waterfront, others have touted solutions such as creating a park underneath or tunnelingthe expressway.

None of those proposals have gathered steam, though Toronto Mayor David Miller and Waterfront Toronto officials support a plan to tear down a section just east of Jarvis St.,saying it is fundamental for the waterfront's redevelopment.

An environmental assessment isunderway on thatproposal, with a final decision not expected before 2011. The price tag is projected at $300 million.

Given that the city has just recently endorsed a policy of mandatory green roofs on buildings of a certain size and height, Klein thinks that's exactly what the Gardiner needs. It would also include solar panels and wind turbines to power new lighting along Lake Shore Blvd., which would also be beautified and made pedestrian-friendly.

"The bottom line is, instead of tearing down the Gardiner and sending hundreds of tonnes of material to landfill, and losing this critical connection to tie our city together, let's put a roof on it," he said, adding he has discussed his idea with some city councillors, though not with Waterfront Toronto officials.

The benefits include reduced maintenance costsand improved public safety for the highway because it would be covered -eliminating the need for snow plowing and salting.The lack of penetrating rain andsalt would reduce corrosion and deterioration of the roadway, a large expense in itself.

Other cities have used the same principle. There'sa thriving market below the Queensboro Bridge in New York, and Manhattan's west side now boasts High LinePark, built on an abandoned elevated rail track.

The Gardinerwas a symbol of progress when itopened more than 40 years ago,andKlein believes it would be a shame to remove it.

"If you tear it down now, it is gone," he said. "I just think it would be horrible waste, because it's a great piece of civic architecture. It serves a vital function."


-------------------------------------

2 thoughts:

1. There is no mention in the article (nor any indication in the rendering) as to how people would gain access to the park. Three options that immediately come to mind are spiral stairwells, elevators and/or ramps (the latter would be a necessity for bike access). Whatever the solution, the park's raised nature compromises its accessibility, and I wonder how many people would actually use it unless it featured some serious trip generators (e.g. small performance venues, museums, etc ... any of which would seriously inflate the cost of such an engineering project).

2. Based on my recent experiences during a trip to Seattle, I can see "noise pollution" becoming a concern. Part of the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle that runs adjacent to the waterfront is in a double-deck alignment, and the noise of the decked over traffic is amplified and echoes quite strongly onto the street below (considerably louder than the noise from the Gardiner - although admittedly the sound of Lakeshore traffic echoes as well, there seems to be enough clearance above that it's not such a problem). In any case, this issue would need to be taken into account during the design of the second level.
 
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re Q 1. I had the same thought as you did. Maybe it will be accessed from the condo buildings that line the Gardiner? That might make the park become somewhat exclusive to the people that live in the condos.

re Q 2. Not just noise pollution but just where are the vehicle exhausts supposed to go? Wouldn't the ruin the park if there were venting pipes all over the place?

I just think that it's a silly proposal.
 
1. It's a problem. Period. You'd have to build extentions beside the existing access ramps.

2. The highway is covered on top but the article makes no mention about sealing up the sides. The idea is to make it look better, not making it watertight.


If this happens, the you immidiately have two things.

1. A traffic seperated bike lane that crosses the city.

2. This I think is more important. A park right across downtown Toronto. Think New York Central Park.



Whatever happens, torning the highway down is not a practical or logical or reasonable action.
 
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