News   Jul 15, 2024
News Roundup for July 15, 2024
 430     0 
News   Jul 15, 2024
Twilight Glow
 544     1 
News   Jul 12, 2024
199 Church Showcases Heritage Facade and Artwork at Street Level
 2K     1 

Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's my point.............Toronto could have been tolling both the Gardiner & DVP for decades and built themselves a truly world class subway system as opposed to the mickey-mouse one they now have to endure. Toronto politicians didn't want to state the truth and do what is best for the city and hence no tolls and only speaks tolls when Queen's Park brings up the idea. In other words "we" didn't want tolls to pay for transit but Queen's Park and Metrolinx forced it on us and the whole region.

If there was any political will in the city from any of the parties, Toronto could have tolls up and running next week and be the beneficiary of huge swaths of funds but alas no. With the money they would rake in the could bury the Gardiner, create a beautiful Waterfront Boulevard, electrify GO, and build the DRL but why do that when it is far more politically advantageous just to do nothing, strike a committee, and blame everything on Queen's Park?
 
Thought it would be time for a brief interlude, while we look out west at the current state of a high profile urban expressway, the Alaskan Way Viaduct, where construction of its replacement tunnel, using the largest TBM ever built, has been stalled for 6 months... and they still don't know exactly why.

http://grist.org/cities/seattles-unbelievable-transportation-megaproject-fustercluck/
Seattle’s unbelievable transportation megaproject fustercluck

berthapit12-10-14.jpg


Last week, I mentioned in passing that Seattle is in the midst of a full-spectrum transportation fustercluck. It has since come to my attention that some Grist readers are unfamiliar with the fustercluck in question, even though it recently made The New York Times and NPR.

This cries out for remedy. A tragicomic infrastructure own goal like this deserves wider exposure. Perhaps some lessons can be learned. Or you can just point and laugh.

“Ha ha, Seattle,” you can say. “What a fustercluck.”
Click to expand...
That's just the opening. It's a long and informative read, so I'll leave it there, and you can read the rest for some delightful schadenfreude... at least until Toronto tries to bury the Gardiner.

For a slightly more optimistic take on it, here's Popular Mechanics gushing about the rescue process:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec...-tunnel-boring-machine-must-be-saved-17201135
The World’s Largest Tunnel-Boring Machine Must Be Saved

big-bertha-01-0914-mdn.jpg

What do you do if you're operating the world's biggest tunneling machine and something goes wrong? You're digging along, everything fine, the machine's five-story maw about to chew beneath the skyscrapers of one of the great American cities. Then suddenly one day things are not so fine. Bertha—that's her name, in honor of Seattle's first woman mayor, Bertha Knight Landes—hits something. A few days later her temperature starts rising. Not good. Then her cutting head stops spinning.

Now what? What do you do when the world's largest tunneling machine is, essentially, stuck in the mud? Bertha is 60 feet under the earth, and you're on the surface watching a squirmy public swap rumors of cost and delay on the $1.35 billion tunnel component of an even larger transportation project, and the naysayers are howling: Just you watch, Bertha will be abandoned like an overheated mole, boondoggle to end all boondoggles. Because, don't forget, when you're boring the world's largest tunnel, everything is bigger—not just the machine and the hole and the outsize hopes but the worries too. The cynicism.

What do you do?
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • berthapit12-10-14.jpg
    berthapit12-10-14.jpg
    119 KB · Views: 510
  • big-bertha-01-0914-mdn.jpg
    big-bertha-01-0914-mdn.jpg
    48 KB · Views: 554
Last edited:
Considering the conditions along the route, I wonder if they could even use TBM in a hypothetical Gardiner scenario in the central section. Cut and cover is probably more realistic.

AoD
 
Public will never agree to tolling the current Gardiner. So give them a new Gardiner. Build a tunneled road and toll it to pay for it. The public might just support that.
 
There is no point to tunneling the existing Gardiner. The current section from Etobicoke easterly to Jarvis isn't going anywhere (it's being rehabbed over the next 10 years), and the section beyond that will likely be demolished and combined with Lakeshore. The # of trips going east on the Gardiner to DVP or Lakeshore East is very small so there won't be a significant impact.
 
Last edited:
arcum said:
There is no point to tunneling the existing Gardiner. The current section from Etobicoke easterly to Jarvis isn't going anywhere (it's being rehabbed over the next 10 years), and the section beyond that will likely be demolished and combined with Lakeshore. The # of trips going east on the Gardiner to DVP or Lakeshore East is very small so there won't be a significant impact.
Click to expand...

unfortunately that's probably what will happen, and we are stuck with this eyesore for the next 50 years at least. History has proved again and again that by removing a high capacity highway it will not be the end of the world and traffic will be just fine, but people are just so scared of that possibility.

my solution? just avoid going anywhere near the Gardiner or passing through it. My Toronto pretty much ends at Front st on the south. Leave it to the new condo owners nearby.
 
grey said:
Remember in Back to the Future Part II when Biff stole the sports almanac to give to his younger self, which altered the timeline and he became rich & famous?

Here's our opportunity to do that, but with the Gardiner Expressway: http://grist.org/cities/seattles-unbelievable-transportation-megaproject-fustercluck/
Click to expand...

Agreed, with the massively scary risks of tunnelling. Makes you think. We don't want Seattle's quagmire, but I don't think Toronto wants to get rid of Gardiner. Even the Boston Dig quagmire eventually turned out to be a resounding success, with huge dividends for Boston afterwards (both for the traffic AND for the surroundings of the now-eliminated viaducts). Using both Seattle and Boston as case studies will be extremely critical here. If all we had to do was suffer a Big Dig in the 2030s, then it would be worth it after the 2040s, having both a grand boulevard (with actual grass, wide sidewalks and space) and traffic reasonably smoothly flowing somewhere else. But it would not be worth it if what we have to undergo is a Seattle quagmire. Fortunately, we don't have the soil conditions Seattle has.

I would only go for it if we have a very good economy and the debt is quite well on its way being paid down. We should be able to nurse a (heavily refurbished) Gardiner for a couple more decades before making the critical decision to eliminate, go below, do shore-extending with floating-tunnel, or even go out to open water (fancy lake cable-stayed viaduct). This isn't a decision we need to make this decade, as we are funding the refurbishment of the Gardiner viaduct.

Even if we have a viaduct rebuild in the 2030s, it probably will be followed by a demolition before the end of this century to another 'solution' (e.g. with much better and self-repiaring robotic tunneling technology available by then). So a viaduct is doomed disappear, one way or another.

Another scenario is we will demolish the viaduct as many suggest we do -- this will likely be followed immediately by a pressure to build some expressway tunnels. Unless we undergo a Beijing/Shanghai miracle (zero subway network to world's biggest subway network, bigger than London Underground, in a single generation or two). In that case, we root for Metrolinx to quickly turn the entire GO network into a network of SmartTracks of hundreds of stations feeling like true "surface subway" in 10-15 years & then also build extra tunnels (e.g. DRL, etc) to crisscross both Metrolinx and TTC everywhere. We'll need to pick up the pace of transit construction if we're going to demolish the Gardiner.

The savior here, is GOtrain Lakeshore West is literally parallel with the Gardiner/403, and it's a top GO RER focus, so we better turn that into a GO RER / SmartTrack (same thing, really) -- a sufficiently frequent surface subway (15min offpeak allday, 5-10min peak) that goes all the way to Hamilton -- for less than the assumed cost of a Gardiner tunnel -- well before the viaduct goes down. That's doable, since France's RER is successfully doing the surface subway thing over distances farther than Hamilton -- so let's hope that happens if we're going to be sufficiently scared away from the Seattle quagmire, and make a bit of expressway disappear from Toronto.
 
Last edited:
ksun said:
unfortunately that's probably what will happen, and we are stuck with this eyesore for the next 50 years at least. History has proved again and again that by removing a high capacity highway it will not be the end of the world and traffic will be just fine, but people are just so scared of that possibility.
Click to expand...

I see this posted a lot, but it's really just cherry-picking a few examples. Removing the busiest sections of the Gardiner would have a devastating effect on the city and the economy. It would put a lot of stress on sideroads and increase travel times of anyone going in/out of the city by hours. It will affect more than just commuters. Think about buses, taxis, travel from downtown to the airport, etc. There just aren't enough alternatives currently. The Lakeshore GO line is close to capacity.
 
arcum said:
The Lakeshore GO line is close to capacity.
Click to expand...
false for the railroad. True only for the diesel trains and their logistical/headway limitations. France pushes a lot more people than that over their equivalent of "GO RER".

Lakeshore GO is bottlenecked only because of many factors that are already being solved as we speak.

Within 10 years:
- Signal improvements at Union (under progress!)
- Union will now have 3x the train capacity after 2016 complete revitalization and a few tweaks
- Electricification and 25% faster trains (planned eventual as GO RER)
- Bad track replaced (planned eventual as GO RER)
- New infill stations, interchanges with TTC, etc
- Full right of way all the way to Hamilton (planned eventual as GO RER)
Within 25 years
- Yet more new infill stations, interchanges with TTC, etc.
- Extra underground track through downtown (already proposed in Metrolinx 2031 plan), to be able to go beyond 3x train capacity at Union

Once that is done, we can more than double or triple the passenger capacity of Lakeshore.

We will have a surface subway (15min peak, 5-10min offpeak) all the way to Hamilton, pushing more people than today's Lakeshore diesel GOtrains. Heck, France runs some GO RER routes during peak with mere 3-minute headway (at peak) on exactly the same kind of railroad we have for Lakeshore West. Yes, Paris double decker trains. Yes, three minute headways. Yes, that's their GOTrain equivalent - it feels like catching a subway! and we can do that with electricified GOtrains after corridor, trackage and signal upgrades, and eventually the proposed train tunnel under Union. Yes, it's a lot of work, modification of the corridor. But it technologically can be done and Metrolinx is already planning it. Much of the starter work is funded and already under way/scheduled. Google "GO RER Metrolinx", google "SmartTrack is GO RER", google "Metrolinx 2031", a wealth of government funded documents and already-approved billions of funds already being allocated towards the GO RER initiative, and the writing is on the wall. The Union revitalization is tripling the size of the GO concourse and tripling capacity, a pretty firm nod at eventual GO RER. The acceleration of Metrolinx initiatives has been rather impressive in the last 10 years. Assuming no cancellation, we might just have enough momentum to SmartTrack all the way to Hamilton in 15 years, with 3-minute double decker trains just like Paris. It exists. For real. Over there. I rode in one! And Ontario is already funding towards it, with Paris as the role model (Paris RER and GO RER is the same acronym -- they stole it from Paris!). It's obvious Ontario wants to copycat the Paris RER, and I welcome it.

Beyond the already-funded initiatives, Go is already proposing to put a 4-track underground tunnel through downtown Toronto in year ~2031. Google "Metrolinx 2031" and you will see they are preliminary planning for this. So we've got some kind of a tunnel anyway -- just for trains, not cars.

Assuming GO RER goes ahead and they "SmartTrack" the Lakeshore corridor with France-style fast-accelerating electric bilevels capable of 3-minute headway:

Based on documents I read, assuming no cancellations or de-funding of already funded monies, and momentum continues for subsequent proposals, these are my realistic predictions:
- Lakeshore GO RER 2025: 5min/15min peak/offpeak to Oakville (electric), 15min/30min peak/offpeak to Hamilton (diesel), 2hr to Niagara Falls (diesel)
- Lakeshore GO RER 2035 (proposed Union 4-track tunnel): 3/6min peak/offpeak to Oakville (electric), 15min/30min offpeak all the way to Hamilton (electric), 30min-1hr to Niagara allday (after new fast growing municipalities created in corridor)
- Gardiner Demolition 2040: Beautiful Lakeshore boulevard with wide sidewalks and landscaped garden-flowers medians, property values skyrocket, funds DRL, even more condos get built and other stuff.

Problem solved (er, mitigated) -- ONLY IF this is done before we demolish the Gardiner. Then I'm satisfied: Go ahead, demolish the Gardiner. We can instead park just a little beyond (at prices far less than downtown) and surface-subway it in. I'm not going to miss Gardiner if there's 3-minute "surface subway" on Lakeshore West GO.

Until then, I'd like to see the Gardiner Tunnel planned. Just in case GO RER is just a dream (that goes poof on the next vote).

DO NOT USE OVERSIZED OR OVERSIZED BOLD
 
Last edited by a moderator:
mdrejhon said:
Go is planning to put a 4-track underground tunnel through downtown Toronto in year ~2031. Google "Metrolinx 2031" and you will see they are preliminary planning for this. So we've got our tunnel anyway -- just for trains, not cars.
Click to expand...

The GO tunnel would move way more people than a Gardiner tunnel. It's a much better investment.
 
mdrejhon said:

Based on documents I read, assuming no cancellations or de-funding of already funded monies, and momentum continues for subsequent proposals, these are my realistic predictions:
- Lakeshore GO RER 2025: 5min/15min peak/offpeak to Oakville (electric), 15min/30min peak/offpeak to Hamilton (diesel), 2hr to Niagara Falls (diesel)
- Lakeshore GO RER 2035 (proposed Union 4-track tunnel): 3/6min peak/offpeak to Oakville (electric), 15min/30min offpeak all the way to Hamilton (electric), 30min-1hr to Niagara allday (after new fast growing municipalities created in corridor)
- Gardiner Demolition 2040: Beautiful Lakeshore boulevard with wide sidewalks and landscaped garden-flowers medians, property values skyrocket, funds DRL, even more condos get built and other stuff.
Click to expand...


Ah yes, some of us fools forget that the Gardiner only carries people who otherwise could use the Lakeshore West rail service ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top