Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[building babel]

Makes it sound like he emerged from poverty. Actually, the Fungs are a wealthy Trinidad family. I went to art school with his kid brother Richard, the gay film maker.

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

Ultimately, Robert Fung removal proved the more feasible choice

 

[GregWTravels]

I think it's very important to take it down. It will deal with a whole raft of north-south connections and we showed them the mechanism for doing it — that is, with Front St. and other roads. This showed it was very feasible

I hear this all the time, and had accepted it as gospel - the Gardiner is a barrier for North-South connections between downtown and the lake.

But then last night I was thinking it over, and became confused as exactly WHY the Gardiner is such a barrier. To get from downtown to the waterfront, one has to walk or drive under a rather unattractive bridge. Is the barrier that so many refer to just the asectic one?

 

[livesquid]

The gardiner may be a visual barrier when looking down the N-S streets (buildings in the way otherwise), but I find the lack of good Lakeshore-crossing spots (partly, granted, due to all the Gardiner on and off-ramps) and the rail lines more of an obstacle.

 

[building babel]

A huge psychological barrier was removed when the easterly part was taken down a few years ago, but the memory of the elevated hulk still lingers. Whenever I'm down in that part of town it feels like a dark cloud has just drifted away from the sun.

 

[jayomatic]

oh no. not this debate again. What's this, maybe the 39th time? haha. look what you started!:rolleyes

 

[FortySixAndTwo462]

I think there's more to it than aesthetics. An expressway doesn't simply influence the land it occupies directly, but also its periphery. Since it is, by definition, high-speed, it effectively prevents any sort of direct interaction with the land around it, except of course at the off-ramps, which occupy a massive amount of land (although the circular offramp that feeds York St. encircles a rather charming little park).

Granted, developers are starting to put up condos that are so close to the Gardiner that you can (possibly literally) step off your balcony onto the highway; however, no matter how much you cram around it, the Gardiner necessarily precludes the type of development that would unify the lands on either side. Effectively, it bisects the neighbourhood much like the Spadina Expressway would have bisected the Annex (not that I'm comparing the legacy of the Annex to the waterfront property... simply that an expressway exerts a sphere of influence that is greater than its footprint).

In this sense, it doesn't act as a barrier so much that you have to climb over it to get to the other side, but it prevents the slivers of land on either side from becoming a cohesive whole. A boulevard, if executed properly of course, could potentially resolve that problem (or maybe not... I'm no traffic analyst).

 

[GregWTravels]

Sorry Jayomatic. I'm just a silly newbie, I don't know enough not to dredge up old, overdiscussed topics.

FortySixAndTwo462 - thanks for the well thought out response.

 

[jayomatic]

haha. I mean't no offense. Welcome to the forum. Even though you've already racked up 80 posts. Nice!

You'll laugh if you go through archives to see how many times this was brought up.

 

[Archivistower]

Greg, yes, this has come up many times, but I think Jayo and others like myself who are amused by the repetition are only amused, no offense meant. Because the active membership changes, people bring new arguments and insights to the issue anyways. 462's comments are thoughtful and new, so we always gain.

Myself, I think the Gardiner is an aesthetic barrier, a psychological barrier, and a physical barrier within the city - and represents a grotesque loss of tax revenue from the incredible amount of land it occupies.

 

[gbelan]

750 mill? lets do it.we have to do the front st extension anyway.

 

[alklay]

Slap an extra dollar onto the rates at Green P parking and knock the sucker down.

No amount of fixing/painting/decorating the underside is going to make the highway any more palitable.

I hope Miller has the guts to take this on. If he is going to win the election easily, why not make it a part of the platform and then claim a mandate when he wins. He can easily build up the political capital and get the votes on counsel.

 

[GregWTravels]

Even better - charge a city center toll like London does, and pay for the Gardiner and all the subway lines!

I would be interesting to see. Does the $750 include the turning of Lakeshore into "a gussied up University Ave?"

 

[WhistlerinToronto]

What if we kept it but gave it a major face lift? I just spent 20 minutes modeling a Libskind sort of design in which all the downtown off and on ramps would be removed, its current supports replaced with a steel white spine. It could be lit within these steel arches with led lights. The new structure would have reduced lanes underneath and a recreational path along its length for bike commuters and joggers during bad weather. It would maintain the traffic flow of those traveling between the East and West. An electronic toll would be placed at the last off ramp Eastbound at the Ex, and the DVP/Lakeshore Westbound Entrance. $1 isn't so much to ask.

Sorry, I only spent 20 min on this, so it's just a rough model. And this alternative plan is only off the top of my head.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Nice design, but if you remove the on and off-ramps you might as well tear down the whole thing. Most people using the Gardiner get off at the Spadina and Yonge/Bay/York off-ramps. We could probably tear it down between the DVP and Yonge tomorrow with no significant affect on traffic...