Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[BurlOak]

I'm scratching my head trying to remember the last time the province actually needed to number a new highway. 416 in the 1980s? Last 400-series before that was probably in the early-mid 1970s.

Not exactly a regular occurrence.

I wonder if politics are at play. Could the government not want it to appear that they are building freeways. As long as nothing comes along with a 400 series number, nobody will notice if they built new corridors or not. It is environmentally friendly to not appear to build freeways.

 

[MisterF]

Farmers on the Greenbelt have to realize that they're not automatically entitled to subdividing their land. Allowing sprawl just because the land owner needs cash is horrible planning.

It's not so much the impact on the Greenbelt lands themselves, but the land that is open up to development beyond the Greenbelt as a result of a new higher-order transportation corridor. Many critics of the Greenbelt argue that its implementation exacerbates sprawl by encouraging leapfrog development, just look at Simcoe County. Widening the 401 and a few county roads will not attract the same amount of new greenfield development that a new highway corridor will.

That's not really happening. Growth in Barrie has actually slowed down since the Greenbelt was put into place. The scope of Places to Grow is way beyond the Greenbelt; it's not perfect but it does ensure that growth in places like Barrie and Guelph is higher density than it used to be. There's a lot more multiple unit housing being built around the GTA and single detached construction is way down.

 

[rbt]

It's still very decent, but still nowhere near what developers are paying for comparably-sized land. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't exactly a lineup of people waiting to purchase farmland for the purpose of farming, except for agribusiness and adjacent farmers looking to add more land to their farm.

I'm not certain about within the greenbelt but in the Hanover/Lucknow/Wingham area (no major cities nearby, no development prospects) you can get multiple bidders. There are obviously fewer people interested in buying but on the flipside there are very few farms up for sale at any given time.

You can actually do pretty well leasing out the land to a farmer who has all the equipment/time to work it but not enough capital to purchase. It's not much different than owning other types of commercial property; few factory or office building owners use the buildings/land themselves.


Yes, I certainly agree they didn't get the multi-million dollar jackpot they wanted; but they will get enough to be able to retire fairly comfortably.

 

[dunkalunk]

For your reference, here is an image of the planned highway 7 route taken from this presentation.

The highway is proposed to end at a bend connecting directly to the Hanlon.

 

[marcus_a_j]

I would argue though that Guelph isn't exactly a "leapfrog development". Yes, you're going to have some people commuting into the GTA, but that corridor is also going to spur a lot of development within Guelph, for Guelph. It's not exactly a bedroom community.

If this was almost any other part of the GTA, for example York Region, I would agree with you. The new development spurred on by the extension of Highway 404 is mainly going to be Toronto-oriented traffic. Not very many of those new residents are actually going to be working in Newmarket. Same thing with highways like the 407 East, which is going to create a lot of bedroom suburbs in the more northern parts of Durham Region.

Guelph currently isn't a bedroom community, at least not completely since there are probably quite a lot of people that do commute to the GTA, Hamilton, and K-W. There would also be some addtional growth in Guelph as a result of the new corridor that could be beneficial for Guelph in terms of job growth and keeping people there, but I am not sure that's enough justification alone. I was referring more to places like Rockwood and Acton where a new corridor would lead to primarily low-density residential development. These would become larger bedroom communities for people working in the GTA, Guelph, K-W.....

Farmers on the Greenbelt have to realize that they're not automatically entitled to subdividing their land. Allowing sprawl just because the land owner needs cash is horrible planning.


That's not really happening. Growth in Barrie has actually slowed down since the Greenbelt was put into place. The scope of Places to Grow is way beyond the Greenbelt; it's not perfect but it does ensure that growth in places like Barrie and Guelph is higher density than it used to be. There's a lot more multiple unit housing being built around the GTA and single detached construction is way down.

Growth north of the Greenbelt was supposed to be directed to Barrie, however that wasn't what happened initially. Look how much Bradford has changed in the last 5-10 years. Springwater and Innisfil have seen quite a bit of development applications for low-density subdivisions. These municipalities became the new hotspots. Granted, there's a lot of employment growth along the 400-corridor also. Nonetheless, an amendment to the Growth Plan was required to address what was happening in Simcoe County and to direct growth to certain nodes and control the development caused by the implementation of Greenbelt.

 

[gweed123]

I'm scratching my head trying to remember the last time the province actually needed to number a new highway. 416 in the 1980s? Last 400-series before that was probably in the early-mid 1970s.

Not exactly a regular occurrence.

The 416 was built in the mid-90s, so that would probably be it in terms of a "new" highway. There have been a lot of extensions to existing 400-series highways since then though. And quite a few more expansions of existing highways to 400-series quality, but without the change in name (Highway 7 out to Carleton Place comes to mind).

Guelph currently isn't a bedroom community, at least not completely since there are probably quite a lot of people that do commute to the GTA, Hamilton, and K-W. There would also be some addtional growth in Guelph as a result of the new corridor that could be beneficial for Guelph in terms of job growth and keeping people there, but I am not sure that's enough justification alone. I was referring more to places like Rockwood and Acton where a new corridor would lead to primarily low-density residential development. These would become larger bedroom communities for people working in the GTA, Guelph, K-W.....

I don't have any doubts that a new highway through Acton et al would lead to increased pressure for development, but in that case it's up to Halton Region to determine where and how much growth they want to have (in addition to boundaries set out in the PTGA).

They would definitely experience some growth, but I doubt it would be a Milton-like explosion in growth. And even if they do grow, by the time that highway is actually built there will be a pretty decent GO line passing right through there as well, with GO REX terminating not too far away. The Kitchener line is much more likely to see a higher level of service than the Milton line will be seeing, at least for the foreseeable future until a deal can be worked out with CP.

 

[waterloowarrior]

I don't see a northern route happening. Even if P2G and the Greenbelt are scrapped/neutered, the Eramosa River and Niagara Escarpment are some of the better-preserved natural corridors in the the GGH and Credit Valley Conservation has some very nice conservation areas in the region as well. Another Escarpment cut would also be extremely controversial...Perhaps an existing corridor could be used through the escarpment, but some the most wealthy and influential people in the country have homes in the area.

 

[MisterF]

Growth north of the Greenbelt was supposed to be directed to Barrie, however that wasn't what happened initially. Look how much Bradford has changed in the last 5-10 years. Springwater and Innisfil have seen quite a bit of development applications for low-density subdivisions. These municipalities became the new hotspots. Granted, there's a lot of employment growth along the 400-corridor also. Nonetheless, an amendment to the Growth Plan was required to address what was happening in Simcoe County and to direct growth to certain nodes and control the development caused by the implementation of Greenbelt.

Innisfil and Bradford were growing long before the greenbelt. And growth hasn't accelerated in Simcoe County at all - just the opposite. In most of the municipalities the growth rates have actually slowed down, including Innisfil, Springwater, and the county as a whole. Just look at the census numbers. The predictions of growth exploding north of the greenbelt just haven't come true.

 

[gweed123]

Innisfil and Bradford were growing long before the greenbelt. And growth hasn't accelerated in Simcoe County at all - just the opposite. In most of the municipalities the growth rates have actually slowed down, including Innisfil, Springwater, and the county as a whole. Just look at the census numbers. The predictions of growth exploding north of the greenbelt just haven't come true.

I think a lot of those growth models failed to take into account the changing population demographics. The demand for single family housing has dropped significantly, because realistically the only people who have kids at home are the tail end of Baby Boomers who's nest hasn't totally emptied, Gen Xers who have kids in school now, and Baby Boom Echoers who are just starting to have kids.

The Baby Boomers, still the largest cohort, are now looking for smaller housing in more 'active' locations. This has been a huge factor in the infill occurring in Toronto right now, because nearly the only people who can actually afford a lot of the places being built are near or at retirement Baby Boomers, and Yuppies/DINKS who have good jobs.

So I think the days of building single family subdivision after single family subdivision, while not necessarily over, are definitely past their peak. This, combined with more targeted growth policies, is going to ensure that the Bolton's, the Bradford's, etc, don't explode the same way that the Brampton's, the Markham's, and the Richmond Hill's did.

 

[marcus_a_j]

Innisfil and Bradford were growing long before the greenbelt. And growth hasn't accelerated in Simcoe County at all - just the opposite. In most of the municipalities the growth rates have actually slowed down, including Innisfil, Springwater, and the county as a whole. Just look at the census numbers. The predictions of growth exploding north of the greenbelt just haven't come true.

So I guess all those development applications for subdivisions my old planning firm was working on (and probably still are), and all the other applications that other firms were working on, are just a myth? And the Province just decided on a whim to amend PPG for Simcoe County specifically just for kicks? I guess all those developers and speculators were just buying up vast tracts of farmland in Simcoe to grow corn and soy beans. Forgive me if the last couple census counts didn't show massive growth, but it takes some time to get through the approval and building process. If population and employment numbers remain relatively static over the next couple census counts then I will gladly accept that I am wrong.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't see a northern route happening. Even if P2G and the Greenbelt are scrapped/neutered, the Eramosa River and Niagara Escarpment are some of the better-preserved natural corridors in the the GGH and Credit Valley Conservation has some very nice conservation areas in the region as well. Another Escarpment cut would also be extremely controversial...Perhaps an existing corridor could be used through the escarpment, but some the most wealthy and influential people in the country have homes in the area.

I am not sure how busy hwy 7 is currently, but I imagine this new route may be chosen over widening the existing highway through Acton, etc.

When I think of almost any widening, MTO has chosen to build a freeway, generally on a new alignment. Eg.

Hwy. 11 to North Bay
Hwy. 69 to Sudbury
Hwy. 17, East of the Soo
Hwy.11/17 from Nipigon to Thunder Bay
Hwy. 7, Guelph to Kitchener

Existing alignment freeways
Hwy. 406 to Welland
Hwy 7 (Carlton Place)

 

[MisterF]

So I guess all those development applications for subdivisions my old planning firm was working on (and probably still are), and all the other applications that other firms were working on, are just a myth? And the Province just decided on a whim to amend PPG for Simcoe County specifically just for kicks? I guess all those developers and speculators were just buying up vast tracts of farmland in Simcoe to grow corn and soy beans. Forgive me if the last couple census counts didn't show massive growth, but it takes some time to get through the approval and building process. If population and employment numbers remain relatively static over the next couple census counts then I will gladly accept that I am wrong.

lol, easy fella. I'm fully aware that there's growth happening in the area. There were plenty of subdivision applications and developers buying up land back in the 80s and 90s too.

 

[Paolo]

so let me get this straight? theyre making a new highway 7 in the west of brampton instead of widening the old one? whats wrong with the highway 7 there already? i take the highway 7 at kitchener area and it seems wide and good traffic speeds already. why replace it

 

[BurlOak]

so let me get this straight? theyre making a new highway 7 in the west of brampton instead of widening the old one? whats wrong with the highway 7 there already? i take the highway 7 at kitchener area and it seems wide and good traffic speeds already. why replace it

There are 2 or 3 highway segments talked about here. The new highway 7 freeway from Kitchener to Guelph, which is probably the first to be built. I am not sure if it was a firm by-election promiseby the Liberals to build this, or a cryptic promise which they intend to break. |The second is the highway roughly parallel to Mayfield Road, and then cutting down at Georgetown to join the 401 East of Mlton. This one they have yet to select a detailed route. It is probably 10 to 20 years away at best. The third is a highway from Guelph to Bramton. This was screened out from the main GTA West study, but I could see it coming up again in the 20 to 30 year timeframe depending on the state of highway 7 at that time.

I am not sure which stretch of Highway 7 you feel is not busy, but from what I can tell, whenever the capacity of a 2 lane highway is increaed, MTO generally chooses a freeway.

 

[Markster]

I am not sure which stretch of Highway 7 you feel is not busy, but from what I can tell, whenever the capacity of a 2 lane highway is increaed, MTO generally chooses a freeway.

Except for when they can instead choose to bulldoze entire villages!

(Thankfully, they eventually backed away from the plan to tear down half of Shakespeare, and are going to do a bypass instead.)