Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[Bureaucromancer]

Not really. CP traffic eventually headed northbound could be diverted that way, but there’s no connection to CP eastbound, and it’s nowhere near a location that could get CN out of Brampton.

The issue really was never constructibility in any case, but a general disinterest by government and CPs discomfort with corridor sharing.

 

[ARG1]

This may have been asked before, but could the 413 transitway be used for heavy rail to create a cheaper “missing link”? I understand the main purpose is to relieve CPs mainline, not CN, but with some reconfigurations it might be possible.

It's primarily an issue of "What does it link?". There is a reason why the 413 ends at the 400 and not the 404, beyond the 400 there is already housing and neighbourhoods that have existed for 20 or so years, and bulldozing through them would be unpopular, regardless if it's a highway, or especially freight rail. As such if you're going to build a heavy rail line there, the only thing it can divert is CP trains going from Milton to the MacTier Sub? I guess CP and CN trains can then travel down the MacTier sub to reach the York and Midtown subs respectively, but honestly this seems like an even harder sell than the Missing Link is.

The issue with the Missing Link was never the cost, the issue was primarily how effective it was at actually diverting traffic from the Kitchener and Milton Lines, which the answer was "it was okay" for the former, and "highly unlikely to actually work" for the latter, and even then there are ways to improve Kitchener Line service that don't involve diverting CN trains elsewhere.

 

[Sunnyside]

It's primarily an issue of "What does it link?". There is a reason why the 413 ends at the 400 and not the 404, beyond the 400 there is already housing and neighbourhoods that have existed for 20 or so years, and bulldozing through them would be unpopular, regardless if it's a highway, or especially freight rail. As such if you're going to build a heavy rail line there, the only thing it can divert is CP trains going from Milton to the MacTier Sub? I guess CP and CN trains can then travel down the MacTier sub to reach the York and Midtown subs respectively, but honestly this seems like an even harder sell than the Missing Link is.

The issue with the Missing Link was never the cost, the issue was primarily how effective it was at actually diverting traffic from the Kitchener and Milton Lines, which the answer was "it was okay" for the former, and "highly unlikely to actually work" for the latter, and even then there are ways to improve Kitchener Line service that don't involve diverting CN trains elsewhere.

Thanks for the explanation, this makes a lot of sense. I never did understand how the missing link would help the Milton line in any case. Seems like to improve that, it would require at least quad tracking the corridor. Still, an entirely different kind of project than a CP bypass.

I honestly would think more broadly that transit ways along our future highways are a good thing. The 413 is one of those cases where that is not true, at least for the time being. But, planned/proposed highways in its vein offer lots of opportunities for better transit via transit ways. Allowing the 413 to figure the formula out might be a good idea.

 

[kamira51]

Do you guys think this will get canned? The recent news about the "species at risk" sounds like it will be the end of the project.

I really hope this gets built anyway, the area of Southern Caledon and Northern Brampton is growing very fast and the current road network in those areas is inefficient.

Now from what I can tell, the biggest issue is crossing the Humber River. Worst case scenario, the part of the highway east of the 427 interchange gets axed.

The benefit of the highway is still useful as it allows drivers to bypass Brampton, which is badly needed.


Anyway that's my take on this.

 

[Haljackey]

Do you guys think this will get canned?

We had an election about this. The one party that supported and campaigned hard for this project won a majority. The ridings this highway will run through or near turned blue - including all of Brampton, which indicates high support for the project in my eyes and the PCs as well.

You can expect Douggie pushing hard on getting this EA complete, planning done and shovels in the ground prior to the 2026 election.

They'll try to do what they can to mitigate environmental impacts / "species at risk" where they can, but this project is almost certainly happening now.

 

[innsertnamehere]

dealing with species at risk is a very standard process in literally any environmental assessment.

 

[Northern Light]

We had an election about this.

Not remotely true. Further, based on polls, if we had made this a singular issue, the highway would have been defeated.

Poll shows that nearly half of GTA Residents oppose Highway 413 - Environmental Defence

A poll by Ekos conducted in December 2021 found that almost half of respondents (49 per cent) are opposed to Highway 413.

environmentaldefence.ca

The one party that supported and campaigned hard for this project won a majority.

With the support of 17% of all eligible voters in Ontario. 83% either voted for parties opposed to the highway or didn't vote.

They'll try to do what they can to mitigate environmental impacts / "species at risk" where they can, but this project is almost certainly happening now.

It may well happen, but I'm certainly hopeful it can still be stalled long enough to die. Its a terrible waste of money, and ecologically destructive to boot.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I mean there is another poll saying exactly the opposite, with 57% of people supporting it compared to 27% being opposed. The poll seems more solid, but the difference in results seems to be based that the Environmental Defence poll included the 416 while the LiUNA poll only surveyed the 905.. So unsurprisingly, the 416 doesn't like it as they won't use it anyway, and the 905 likes it because they will use it.

Ford supported the highway because internal PC polling indicated it was popular in key 905 ridings, and that paid off. We can see how Ford managed to flip NDP Brampton Ridings, and I genuinely believe that is because of the 413 issue.

Majority of GTA residents support Highway 413, poll for labour union suggests | Globalnews.ca

The proposed project would run for roughly 52 kilometres from Highway 400 in Vaughan to Highway 401 near Milton in the west.

globalnews.ca

Majority of GTA residents support Highway 413, poll for labour union suggests​

A new poll commissioned by a major North American union suggests support for a controversial highway, proposed to run to the west of Toronto.

The poll, conducted for the Ontario Provincial District Council of the Labourers’ International Union of North America (LiUNA), found 57 per cent of people in the Greater Toronto Area supported Highway 413.

LiUNA represents workers in Canada and the United States, including construction workers in the GTA.

The poll’s findings are in contrast with another study completed in December by an environmental group that suggested there were more people in the GTA opposed to the project than in support.
The poll found 17 per cent of those asked who lived in the GTA-905 strong supported the highway. A further 40 per cent of respondents somewhat supported the project.

A total of 18 per cent of GTA-905 respondents strongly opposed Highway 413 and nine per cent somewhat opposed it.

Fifteen per cent were unsure.

 

[Ward8]

I mean there is another poll saying exactly the opposite, with 57% of people supporting it compared to 27% being opposed. The poll seems more solid, but the difference in results seems to be based that the Environmental Defence poll included the 416 while the LiUNA poll only surveyed the 905.. So unsurprisingly, the 416 doesn't like it as they won't use it anyway, and the 905 likes it because they will use it.

The 416 may not use it as often, but it affects the drinking water, flood mitigation, clean air, traffic patterns, food supply, and climate targets of those citizens directly. There is definitely a hypocrisy to this, as many people who appose the highway also oppose even moderate increases in housing density. If we're having a good faith argument, saying "only the people who are going to drive on the highway get a say" would be inappropriate. There is plenty of nuance and complexity. The article this morning about endangered species force the federal government to act in one way or another. The news of the current and former governments ineptitude on the power grid will also be a factor for a lot of people. With 30 percent of the grid reverting to natural gas, electric cars are not going to be the climate saviour that some have predicted for Ontario.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The 416 may not use it as often, but it affects the drinking water, flood mitigation, clean air, traffic patterns, food supply, and climate targets of those citizens directly. There is definitely a hypocrisy to this, as many people who appose the highway also oppose even moderate increases in housing density. If we're having a good faith argument, saying "only the people who are going to drive on the highway get a say" would be inappropriate. There is plenty of nuance and complexity. The article this morning about endangered species force the federal government to act in one way or another. The news of the current and former governments ineptitude on the power grid will also be a factor for a lot of people. With 30 percent of the grid reverting to natural gas, electric cars are not going to be the climate saviour that some have predicted for Ontario.

Absolutely - I'm not saying 416 residents shouldn't get a say, but perhaps it should be weighted less than those who actually live close to the highway. As much as the 416 will see minor changes as a result of the highway, those in the 905 will see both the positive and negative impacts in far larger scales.

Debating the "green cred" of EVs is a whole other ballgame and doesn't really factor into the debate on this highway IMO, and besides, the PCs have stated they plan to address "backsliding" of the electric grid in regards to emissions.

Also - again, our chosen collective form of democracy spoke quite resoundingly this month in support of a government which supports this highway, and polling indicates that government may have flipped several ridings because of it's position on this highway. Heck, for the first time, the PCs won more votes in the 416 than any other party.

Ultimately our chosen form of democracy has indicated support for it. We can debate it's environmental merits, or it's transportation merits, but to debate is popularity I think is relatively settled at this point. At the very least it's not an issue that has an impact on voting decisions, and given the level of media play it's received, I would be surprised if that's the case.

 

[Northern Light]

Also - again, our chosen collective form of democracy

Chosen by whom???

spoke quite resoundingly this month in support of a government which supports this highway, and polling indicates that government may have flipped several ridings because of it's position on this highway.

Again, I don't agree w/this statement at all. I don't see any evidence to support this.

Heck, for the first time, the PCs won more votes in the 416 than any other party.

And parties officially opposed to the highway got far more votes. You can be pro-highway if you wish, but you ought not to attempt to cherry-pick a number to suggest support that simply isn't evidence.

Ultimately our chosen form of democracy has indicated support for it.

Again, I find everything about this statement to be incorrect.

We can debate it's environmental merits, or it's transportation merits, but to debate is popularity I think is relatively settled at this point.

I don't agree on the latter; and would give far greater weight to the former in any event.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Chosen by whom???



Again, I don't agree w/this statement at all. I don't see any evidence to support this.



And parties officially opposed to the highway got far more votes. You can be pro-highway if you wish, but you ought not to attempt to cherry-pick a number to suggest support that simply isn't evidence.



Again, I find everything about this statement to be incorrect.



I don't agree on the latter; and would give far greater weight to the former in any event.

So we are stretching to question the Canadian constitution in opposition to this highway? We are really going down the rabbit hole of whether our current parliamentary democracy system is democratically valid? I mean when was the last time a governing party actually received more than 50% of the vote at any given time? Are you really stating that the last half-century of governments in this province have been electorally invalid? Ultimately we as a collective society have over a long period of democratic elections and systems have agreed to operate under our democratic system and I don't see any significant dissent against that. And under that system, the PCs were properly elected with a strong majority government. We laugh at Republicans south of the border questioning election results (and rightfully so), but as soon as a conservative party wins here, it's ok to do the same? And that's for a party that won a strong plurality of votes, what is your opinion of the Federal liberals who are governing despite winning *less* votes than the federal Conservatives did (not questioning the vailidity of that election, the Liberals won fair and square under the electoral system we have collectively signed on to)?

Regarding the flipping of ridings, the PCs flipped three ridings in Brampton, directly beside the highway. The highway may or may not have factored into that, but it certainly doesn't appear to have hurt them. I struggle to say that the highway failed electoral support when the PCs swept the three regions this highway runs through and basically every riding within a 20km radius of it (with the exception of Humber-River Black Creek).

 

[Northern Light]

I mean when was the last time a governing party actually received more than 50% of the vote at any given time?

Federally, Brian Mulroney, first term, just crested the 50% number.

Provincially, the last party to crest 50% was also the Conservatives, in 1929, Howard Feguson won with 58.8% of the vote.

Are you really stating that the last half-century of governments in this province have been electorally invalid?

Statutorily? No. Morally, yes. I've always felt that way, no matter who wins. I don't think the 'will of the people' is everything (that's why we have a Charter, so that the mob can't suppress individual rights on a whim.......

That said, the starting point of any democratic government must be to have the consent of the governed; by which we surely mean a majority. Any assertion to contrary renders democracy utterly without meaning.

Ultimately we as a collective society have over a long period of democratic elections and systems have agreed to operate under our democratic system and I don't see any significant dissent against that.

Three out of 4 main parties in the last Ontario election ran on a platform of electoral reform and won 59% of ballots cast. We can nitpick whether a majority is in favour of any particular model, you cannot say with a straight face that there isn't material opposition to the status quo.

And under that system, the PCs were properly elected with a strong majority government. We laugh at Republicans south of the border questioning election results (and rightfully so), but as soon as a conservative party wins here, it's ok to do the same?

No, I'm consistent, I oppose the current system when Liberals win and when Rae won for that matter, the rules should be consistent across all elections, but different rules than what we use today.

And that's for a party that won a strong plurality of votes, what is your opinion of the Federal liberals who are governing despite winning *less* votes than the federal Conservatives did (not questioning the vailidity of that election, the Liberals won fair and square under the electoral system we have collectively signed on to)?

The Liberals actually lack a majority in this parliament which I see as a positive, though I dislike their overall style of governing which is as if there were a majority. Again, I'm consistent I have always opposed FPTP no matter which party wins. I do not favour, indeed I completely and utterly oppose any party obtaining well less than 50% of the vote and then having 100% of the power.

Regarding the flipping of ridings, the PCs flipped three ridings in Brampton, directly beside the highway. The highway may or may not have factored into that, but it certainly doesn't appear to have hurt them. I struggle to say that the highway failed electoral support when the PCs swept the three regions this highway runs through and basically every riding within a 20km radius of it (with the exception of Humber-River Black Creek).

The highway did not poll as a deciding issue in any of those constituencies or in any other..........

That said, lets pretend otherwise for a moment:

55.2% of voters supported parties/candidates opposed to the highway

53.9% of voters supported candidates/parties opposed to the highway.

51.6% of voters supported parties/candidates opposed to the highway.

***

The PCs/conservative-leaning parties did obtain a majority or near-majority of votes cast in Dufferin-Caledon and Wellington/Halton Hills.

 

[kamira51]

Chosen by whom???



Again, I don't agree w/this statement at all. I don't see any evidence to support this.



And parties officially opposed to the highway got far more votes. You can be pro-highway if you wish, but you ought not to attempt to cherry-pick a number to suggest support that simply isn't evidence.



Again, I find everything about this statement to be incorrect.



I don't agree on the latter; and would give far greater weight to the former in any event.

Chosen by the people of Ontario who voted for the conservative government.


Plenty of evidence.

Most of those votes were people hoping to get rid of the conservative government, not just because of the highway.

First article: https://globalnews.ca/news/8807760/highway-413-supported-poll-gta-west-corridor/amp/

Second article: https://globalnews.ca/news/8807760/highway-413-supported-poll-gta-west-corridor/amp/

Third article: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...r-fords-proposed-highway-413-which-would-cut/

And the final is a report done by the RCCAO.
The report is labeled as

"Jobs and Economic Impact of the GTA West Corridor"​

Link below

RCCAO

rccao.com

It's obvious the working people of Ontario want this highway, the benefits are massive, jobs infrastructure being built,supporting the trucking industry.

 

[Northern Light]

It's obvious the working people of Ontario want this highway, the benefits are massive, jobs infrastructure being built,supporting the trucking industry.

Stop!

This is genuinely offensive. Its a gross misrepresentation of the facts to suit your position.

Yes, I have a preference, but I don't shift the facts to support it.