Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[ericmacm]

As much as I'm personally opposed to the 413, isn't it a bit disingenuous to use a picture of an eight-lane express/collector configuration as the leading picture to an article about it? If the whole point is that a 3 lane freeway is oversized and inappropriate, a wide, in-use freeway in an urban area isn't a good representation of what's going on...

The use of terms like "super-highway", "mega-highway", "supercharging emissions", and "paving paradise" along with using photos of wide urban freeways in these kinds of articles/activism posts to represent what will really just be two mostly rural, four (in some sections six)-lane highways (at least for the time being) has always been about inciting an emotional response, not a logical one.

There are plenty of valid arguments against building both highways, but intentionally misrepresenting aspects of the projects to try and produce a greater negative emotional response from the public is pretty disingenuous indeed.

 

[Deadpool X]

Why don't these environmentalists sue government for not building enough transit. That alone will reduce greenhouse emissions a lot more than emissions released because of this highway.

 

[44 North]

The use of terms like "super-highway", "mega-highway", "supercharging emissions", and "paving paradise" along with using photos of wide urban freeways in these kinds of articles/activism posts to represent what will really just be two mostly rural, four (in some sections six)-lane highways (at least for the time being) has always been about inciting an emotional response, not a logical one.

There are plenty of valid arguments against building both highways, but intentionally misrepresenting aspects of the projects to try and produce a greater negative emotional response from the public is pretty disingenuous indeed.

Building something to 400-series standards is a pretty big deal. You write "mostly rural" and there's an implication it's a low-speed leisure road winding through the trees. It's not. It's an extremely massive engineering task, insanely wide tract for max expansion, carves down any landforms to allow easy 150km speeds, probably 2km sq just for an interchange. It's the type of stuff you can see from space. To call it a 'four lane highway' is a bit disingenuous. Arguably you're too guilty of inciting emotional response..

 

[kamira51]

Building something to 400-series standards is a pretty big deal. You write "mostly rural" and there's an implication it's a low-speed leisure road winding through the trees. It's not. It's an extremely massive engineering task, insanely wide tract for max expansion, carves down any landforms to allow easy 150km speeds, probably 2km sq just for an interchange. It's the type of stuff you can see from space. To call it a 'four lane highway' is a bit disingenuous. Arguably you're too guilty of inciting emotional response..

I'd say it depends on area where it's being built, like example is the 407E that goes through an area with alot of hills that need to be smothed out. The 413 route is %80 flat, so it shouldn't require the same level of work as the 407E required.

But that's just my opinion, I'm no engineer so my opinion means nothing.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Building something to 400-series standards is a pretty big deal. You write "mostly rural" and there's an implication it's a low-speed leisure road winding through the trees. It's not. It's an extremely massive engineering task, insanely wide tract for max expansion, carves down any landforms to allow easy 150km speeds, probably 2km sq just for an interchange. It's the type of stuff you can see from space. To call it a 'four lane highway' is a bit disingenuous. Arguably you're too guilty of inciting emotional response..

That's an exaggeration as well, bouncing from one side to another. I just measured a new interchange on the 407 and it's 0.24 square kilometres on the generous end.. Even the large 412-407 ETR interchange, which also includes the Lakeridge and Highway 7 interchanges, comes in under 1 square km.

The 407 ETR is also about 100m wide in right of way width. It's wide, but not absurdly so.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a quiet windy country road - but just that it's not a massive 14-lane behemoth either.

 

[Krypto98]

A perfect example of environmentalists pushing false information just to get this thing canceled.

While I'm a bit concerned about the section running in Vaughan near a conservation area. Most of the land in the part running in Caledon is already being developed... anyone claiming it's only empty farmland is wrong.

 

[kamira51]

While I'm a bit concerned about the section running in Vaughan near a conservation area. Most of the land in the part running in Caledon is already being developed... anyone claiming it's only empty farmland is wrong.

Yeah I agree that the section in York Region is the most concerning due to the conservation area.

 

[ericmacm]

Building something to 400-series standards is a pretty big deal. You write "mostly rural" and there's an implication it's a low-speed leisure road winding through the trees. It's not. It's an extremely massive engineering task, insanely wide tract for max expansion, carves down any landforms to allow easy 150km speeds, probably 2km sq just for an interchange. It's the type of stuff you can see from space. To call it a 'four lane highway' is a bit disingenuous. Arguably you're too guilty of inciting emotional response...

Nobody is arguing that these are going to be rural, winding roads - that may be your personal impression of what a rural road is, but I would highly doubt that the vast majority of people would think that's what these highways are going to look like, considering that is what services these areas right now. There are plenty of rural 400-series highways in the province, so they are the best equivalents we have to what will be built in the meantime. Nobody is arguing either that they won't be a significant undertaking that will be disruptive to their local environments. Also, FYI, 400-series highways are designed to 130km/hr, not 150km/hr, and one of Ontario's largest interchanges (the 400/407 interchange, plus the four additional interchanges directly adjacent to it at Weston, Steeles, Jane, and HWY 7) only occupies a space of 1.69 square kilometres, so I highly doubt a normal interchange would even come close to that. If you're going to use numbers to make your point, make sure they have a basis.

Additionally, it doesn't matter if you or I or anyone else on here is disengenous or is emotionally exaggerative. We aren't public figures or media outlets, we are just forumers debating something we ultimately have no control over, and this is not the point I was trying to make. My issue is with public-facing entities like activism groups and media outlets writing articles and making statements that intentionally omit, misrepresent, or exaggerate impacts to produce a greater emotional response. It prevents everything from being laid out on the table so people can see everything at once, both good and bad, and make their decisions that way.

 

[tsm1072]

The 407 ETR is also about 100m wide in right of way width. It's wide, but not absurdly so.

The problem is that 100m doesn't seem wide when you are in a car, but as a pedestrian or cyclist, crossing a 100m highway ROW is not a friendly task, especially when you have to add on the approach distances to get up or down to the overpass/underpass. This highway isn't currently being built in an area with much development but in the future, there will be development and we should plan well ahead to build that development at a walkable scale.

 

[wopchop]

While I'm a bit concerned about the section running in Vaughan near a conservation area. Most of the land in the part running in Caledon is already being developed... anyone claiming it's only empty farmland is wrong.

But should they be developed?
I think you will find that a lot of the people opposed to this highway are worried that it's construction will be used as an excuse to expand the urban boundary even further. With more and more sprawl. After all, there will be a massive new piece of infrastructure in this area.
The idea that developers will not start to push applications, and appeal any municipal plan that might forbid development here, is not that far fetched IMO.
People said the same thing in Halton many years ago. We will protect the farms, green spaces, blah blah blah. And now are seeing Dundas to 407 developed in Oakville, huge parts of Milton between 407 & 401, and lots of farmland in Georgetown will be gone in 30 years.

 

[Krypto98]

But should they be developed?
I think you will find that a lot of the people opposed to this highway are worried that it's construction will be used as an excuse to expand the urban boundary even further. With more and more sprawl. After all, there will be a massive new piece of infrastructure in this area.
The idea that developers will not start to push applications, and appeal any municipal plan that might forbid development here, is not that far fetched IMO.
People said the same thing in Halton many years ago. We will protect the farms, green spaces, blah blah blah. And now are seeing Dundas to 407 developed in Oakville, huge parts of Milton between 407 & 401, and lots of farmland in Georgetown will be gone in 30 years.

The issue is... that it's already too late... if you drive along Mayfield road from Kennedy Road to Mississauga Road. There are houses already under construction on both sides of the road. The 413 would be located less than 5 minutes north. Within 1 year those houses will be finished construction. Now if you want to protest those houses being built right now by all means go ahead. But the houses are being built with or without the highway

 

[wopchop]

The issue is... that it's already too late... if you drive along Mayfield road from Kennedy Road to Mississauga Road. There are houses already under construction on both sides of the road. The 413 would be located less than 5 minutes north. Within 1 year those houses will be finished construction. Now if you want to protest those houses being built right now by all means go ahead. But the houses are being built with or without the highway

Yeah, true enough.
But how much more will be enabled? Kennedy to Mississauga Rd along Mayfield is only one small slice along the length of the 413.
Bit disingenuous to say it is already too late, and use that as an example.

What about all the land from King to Old School Rd to Mayfield. These are huge swathes of land that will surely face huge development pressure.

 

[ARG1]

Yeah, true enough.
But how much more will be enabled? Kennedy to Mississauga Rd along Mayfield is only one small slice along the length of the 413.
Bit disingenuous to say it is already too late, and use that as an example.

What about all the land from King to Old School Rd to Mayfield. These are huge swathes of land that will surely face huge development pressure.

a lot of it is covered by the expanded greenbelt however. Virtually all land that won't be covered by the greenbelt is already slated for development.

 

[Krypto98]

Yeah, true enough.
But how much more will be enabled? Kennedy to Mississauga Rd along Mayfield is only one small slice along the length of the 413.
Bit disingenuous to say it is already too late, and use that as an example.

What about all the land from King to Old School Rd to Mayfield. These are huge swathes of land that will surely face huge development pressure.

I think probably Mayfield to Old School road will get developed as most of it is already having that

There is a new subdivision starting construction between Dixie and Bramalea south of Mayfield and another one from Torbram to Airport Road south of Mayfield. In the east end of Brampton the construction trucks are already around for some industrial stuff to go up around countryside/highway 50

 

[W. K. Lis]

How subsidizing trucks to use the 407 could cost Ontario less than building Highway 413​

From link.

Calls are growing for Premier Doug Ford's government to reduce traffic congestion by encouraging more drivers to use the 407 ETR toll highway, rather than spending billions of dollars to build the proposed Highway 413.

The 413 would run for 60 kilometres across the northwestern part of the Greater Toronto Area and through the Greenbelt. The proposal has become a lightning rod for environmental groups who say the highway will contribute to sprawl, and all three opposition parties say they would cancel the plan if Ford's PCs are defeated in the June election.

Opponents of Highway 413 see the 407 as an underused alternative, with great potential to lure traffic from the busiest highway in Canada, the 401.

The advocacy group Transport Action Ontario is floating the idea that the provincial government should in effect make it free for transport trucks to use the 407 by paying the cost of their tolls.

The group argues this would be a cheaper solution for the government than building and operating Highway 413 and would do more to solve the GTA's congestion problems right now.

"Right now, most truckers use the 401 because they find the tolls [on the 407] prohibitive," said Peter Miasek, president of Transport Action Ontario.

"It strikes us [that] the 407 is the perfect alternative because it's uncongested at this time."

Using data from provincial traffic studies and the company that owns 407 ETR, the group estimates such a move would get between 12,000 and 21,000 trucks using the toll highway each weekday.

It calculates that a full toll subsidy for that many trucks over a 30-year period would add up to the equivalent of $4 billion in today's dollars.

The Ford government is not saying how much Highway 413 will cost, but an estimate by the previous government several years ago put it at $6 billion. Independent analysts have pegged the current cost in the range of $8-to-$10 billion.

Negotiating such a deal with the company that owns 407 ER would "require a little creativity and some pressure" from the provincial government, says Toby Heaps, the chief executive of Corporate Knights, a business research and media firm based in Toronto.

"There's definitely room for a deal to be done, given that the 407 is relatively empty and there's a lot of big trucks who would love to get on there," said Heaps, one of the entrepreneurs who signed a new open letter to the Ford government calling for a halt to Highway 413.

Others in the corporate world insist that Highway 413 is needed to tackle the growth in traffic in the GTA and they see a toll subsidy on the 407 as an inadequate solution.

"It is not a realistic option," said Nadia Todorova, executive director of the Residential and Civil Construction Alliance of Ontario.

With the expected significant increases in population around the GTA, Todorova said capacity must be added to the existing highway network.

"The 407 alone is not enough to meet that projected demand surge," said Todorova in an interview.

"Even if we were to focus on the 407 in the immediate future, by 2031 we would be right back where we started and suffer from the same sort of congestion problems that we currently have."

While the Ford government is not ruling out measures to get more traffic onto the 407, it is not considering scrapping plans to build Highway 413.

"We can look at temporary measures to alleviate tragic traffic congestion, but we also have to think long term too," said Stan Cho, the associate minister of transportation.

"The 413 has to be built because of a growing population," Cho said in an interview at Queen's Park.

Liberal Leader Steven Del Duca, who was transportation minister when the previous government hit the pause button on the 413, thinks the government should explore a toll subsidy as an alternative to building the new highway.

"I believe every option should be on the table," said Del Duca, "Perhaps that could include looking at ways to encourage more truck traffic or goods traffic onto the 407 ETR."

Tolls on the privately-owned 407 ETR vary depending on the time of day and the particular stretch of highway. Between 6 a.m. and 7 p.m. the per-kilometre price for a typical transport truck ranges from 77 cents to $1.24.

In 2019, before the pandemic put a significant dent in its traffic, 407 ETR brought in $1.4 billion in toll revenues, according to its financial statements.