amnesiajune
Senior Member
Here's a link to the city's report on revenue options: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-98518.pdf#page=41. Info about road tolls starts at the bottom of page 41.
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salsa
Senior Member
Cost to rehabilitate the Gardiner has jumped from $2.6B to $3.6B. The hybrid Gardiner East option increased by almost $500M.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
It was never either of those figures. $2.6 billion is the capital spending in the city's ten-year capital plan for the entire Gardiner and DVP. $3.6 billion is the estimated capital and operation spending, in 2016 dollars, for the next thirty years on both freeways.
MetroMan
Senior Member
If I were a betting man, I'd start looking at putting my money on City Council reversing its decision and the Gardiner East being torn down.
Rising costs, funding uncertainty could reopen Gardiner debate
The tide is turning on City Council to have a second look at the Gardiner East boulevard option. At just $500M, it's certainly looking a lot more attractive than the still ballooning cost of rebuilding the Gardiner.
Tory has expended quite a lot of political capital and with half of his term behind him, he doesn't command the kind of power that he did in his first year. We've started seeing some of his reliable supporters vote against him on some issues.
While Tory will be adamant that the Gardiner staying up is essential to his toll plan, tolls could still work based on a timed system. Pay a toll to get on the DVP and when you get off at Lakeshore, you can continue ahead and take the Gardiner without being charged again. Or they could just adopt a toll road by distance, in which case it wouldn't matter if the DVP and Gardiner were disconnected.
Rising costs, funding uncertainty could reopen Gardiner debate
The tide is turning on City Council to have a second look at the Gardiner East boulevard option. At just $500M, it's certainly looking a lot more attractive than the still ballooning cost of rebuilding the Gardiner.
Tory has expended quite a lot of political capital and with half of his term behind him, he doesn't command the kind of power that he did in his first year. We've started seeing some of his reliable supporters vote against him on some issues.
While Tory will be adamant that the Gardiner staying up is essential to his toll plan, tolls could still work based on a timed system. Pay a toll to get on the DVP and when you get off at Lakeshore, you can continue ahead and take the Gardiner without being charged again. Or they could just adopt a toll road by distance, in which case it wouldn't matter if the DVP and Gardiner were disconnected.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
the problem is assuming that the elevated cost has increased but not the at grade option. Its the same thing with the Scarborough subway, people make it out to be over twice the price of the LRT, but in reality the subway is $3 billion and the LRT is $2.5 billion. They compare detailed, escalated prices with high level, single year (often several years ago, too) prices. It isn't a fair comparison.
MetroMan
Senior Member
I'd expect the at grade cost to have gone up with time but I can't see why it would go up significantly. Building what amounts to essentially a new expressway north of the existing one is prone to huge fluctuations as design progresses. The design that they have now isn't the one that they had during the study. On the other hand, tearing down an expressway is tearing down an expressway. There's not much that they could have missed in the original study. Even if it somehow went up, it's still going to cost less than half of what it costs to build a new elevated expressway.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
The only problem with removing the Gardner is where does the traffic on it go. It will just make a mess of lake shore and other streets. We can't do something stupid with it because it is vital link to get across the city for many people. City council waterfront toronto and the people who want it taken down are living in a dram world if they think it will reduce traffic in the city it will make it worse.
MetroMan
Senior Member
The problem with that comment is that it's been debated to death and you seem to have missed the entire debate. Start at the beginning of this thread and keep reading until you get back here.
City staff recommended replacing the elevated east Gardiner with an at grade boulevard.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Which I still say is stupid we need the gardener we don't need to increase lakeshore to the size of the 401 just so some poel in condos can get a view of the lake. I'm sorry all it will do is cause a mess unless we do what they did in Boston but Waterfront Toronto the geniuses behind Queens Quay and the Bentway think it's not necessary and say we should be like san francisco that took thers down afte na eth quake.
TransitBart
Senior Member
The city staff are as delusional as the lefty scribblers at The Star about the impact of this twaddle. They (city staff) don't have a monopoly on being right. They have an opinion which is a part of the debate on any topic.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Kill this thing. Enough already.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
If the 905ers and the car-addicted 416ers don't want to pay a toll, then tear the eastern part of Gardiner down. Simple. If they want to keep it (as a hybrid), then there will be a toll.
muller877
Senior Member
You mean the 416-ers that don't live in Rosedale and Forest Hill who have to use the Gardiner vs local streets? We know who is calling the shots in Toronto...the Family Compact is alive and well and controlling Toronto (and the Liberal Party).
A toll disproportionately shields the wealthy enclaves from paying and hurts those that live in the outer areas of Toronto who are working shifts (and the TTC doesn't serve them well)...great idea. Slap a toll on Bayview and see what would happen.
Euphoria
Active Member
I've said all along that tolls should only be placed on additional highways to fund their construction, help pay for transit, and relieve congestion overall. The only exception I'd make is that a toll tunnel would be a worthwhile replacement to the elevated portion of the Gardiner, as long as the offloading from the free highways onto the city road grid keep traffic moving at a reasonable rate. The elevated Gardiner will have to go eventually. I could see a reasonable offloading in the west at a Front Street extension west of Bathurst, at Strachan by the Prince's Gates, and ideally, through a short free tunnel to Adelaide and Richmond Streets just east of Bathurst. In the east, there could be offloading through the Unilever site and on the existing ramps from the DVP onto Adelaide and Richmond Streets. Turn Lakeshore Blvd. into something special.
pstogios
Senior Member
It's amazing how people don't understand Economics 101.
Prices are the signals provided to allow for balancing of supply and demand. Have too much demand for something (I.e. clogged roads)? Increase the price. Can't increase the supply for something. (I.e. can't build more roads because land is used up?) Increase the price.
It's simple economics. This isn't "anti-car" or "anti-905" or anti anyone. It's about fixing what is clearly out of balance in the "market" of transportation around Toronto.
Prices are the signals provided to allow for balancing of supply and demand. Have too much demand for something (I.e. clogged roads)? Increase the price. Can't increase the supply for something. (I.e. can't build more roads because land is used up?) Increase the price.
It's simple economics. This isn't "anti-car" or "anti-905" or anti anyone. It's about fixing what is clearly out of balance in the "market" of transportation around Toronto.