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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

nfitz said:
Recently, with the westbound Gardiner opening up from 2 to 3 lanes, while eastbound is still 2 lanes, I'm seeing much faster AM peak westbound travel than I've seen in years.

These 2 observations suggest induced demand is very real.
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This makes no sense. If induced demand on this stretch of the Gardiner is true, then as you expand from 2 to 3 lanes, traffic congestion wouldn't decrease, it would increase. But we see the opposite.
 
pstogios said:
This makes no sense. If induced demand on this stretch of the Gardiner is true, then as you expand from 2 to 3 lanes, traffic congestion wouldn't decrease, it would increase. But we see the opposite.
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People usually have to travel in 2 directions, so because eastbound is 2 lanes and westbound is 3 lanes, more people have not started driving because of the bottleneck eastbound. Therefore, the westbound trip has become much faster.
 
LNahid2000 said:
People usually have to travel in 2 directions, so because eastbound is 2 lanes and westbound is 3 lanes, more people have not started driving because of the bottleneck eastbound. Therefore, the westbound trip has become much faster.
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Agreed - but if we'd believe andrewpmk then the cars would be on other roads, or just backed up on the Gardiner for PM peak - and back on the Gardiner for the AM peak. But they aren't, thus proving him wrong (as usual).
 
Induced demand: If we close the Gardiner people will just move to the Yonge Subway - no capacity issues there!

And just because you can easily argue "induced demand", doesn't mean it's good. If we induce someone to take the 1 hour GO Train is this really an improvement over having them drive 20 mins?
 
darth_freeman said:
And just because you can easily argue "induced demand", doesn't mean it's good. If we induce someone to take the 1 hour GO Train is this really an improvement over having them drive 20 mins?
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Which GO Train to downtown in peak can be replaced by a 20-minute drive?
 
nfitz said:
Which GO Train to downtown in peak can be replaced by a 20-minute drive?
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Think GO Train + subway/bus/walk etc. The GO Train only goes to Union. Driving is much more flexible.

If you really need examples where driving would be considerably faster than taking transit then I can't help you.
 
LNahid2000 said:
Because the Yonge subway goes in the same direction as the Gardiner :facepalm:
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Snarky comment aside...the point is that the Gardiner can't be removed if no alternatives are in place.

Like how that study that showed there would be only a 3 minute delay heading into downtown if the Gardiner is removed (assuming GO RER, Waterfront LRT, DRL, etc. etc. are already built).
 
darth_freeman said:
Think GO Train + subway/bus/walk etc. The GO Train only goes to Union. Driving is much more flexible.
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You said 60-minute GO Train - goalposts are oving. Still can't think of a trip to Union plus either walk, subway, or bus that's a 20-minute drive. Unless you do something odd, and start at Danforth, go to Union, take the subway to York Mills, and bus to Don Mills - but even that's closer to a 30-minute drive in AM peak.

darth_freeman said:
If you really need examples where driving would be considerably faster than taking transit then I can't help you.
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60 minutes versus 20 minutes to Union?

I'm hard-pressed to think of any decent example. Sure, there maybe xamples that both start and end in the 'burbs - but that's really not what we are talking.
 
nfitz said:
You said 60-minute GO Train - goalposts are oving. Still can't think of a trip to Union plus either walk, subway, or bus that's a 20-minute drive. Unless you do something odd, and start at Danforth, go to Union, take the subway to York Mills, and bus to Don Mills - but even that's closer to a 30-minute drive in AM peak.

60 minutes versus 20 minutes to Union?

I'm hard-pressed to think of any decent example. Sure, there maybe xamples that both start and end in the 'burbs - but that's really not what we are talking.
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Would it make you feel better if I instead compared a 50 minute GO Train/transit effort to a 30 minute drive? Do you still not realize the point I am getting at?
 
darth_freeman said:
Would it make you feel better if I instead compared a 50 minute GO Train/transit effort to a 30 minute drive? Do you still not realize the point I am getting at?
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I have no idea your point. I think inducing someone to take a 50 minute transit trip over a 30-minute drive is a very good thing. Especially if it includes a 15-minute walk - more spare time, and exercise to boot!
 
darth_freeman said:
Would it make you feel better if I instead compared a 50 minute GO Train/transit effort to a 30 minute drive? Do you still not realize the point I am getting at?
Click to expand...
Time isn't the only thing that matters when deciding between transit and driving. I know many people who take transit instead of driving even though it takes much longer because it's less stressful, results in 50 minutes of productive time instead of 30 minutes of unproductive time, they can sleep on the train, etc.
 
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