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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

I think this article hits the nail on the head. We are spending a ton of money (half a billion) to save a tiny number of drives a few minutes of their day. (and even that is questionable, as it probably wouldn't have made any difference, time wise)

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...sacrifice-to-the-cult-of-motorism-keenan.html

So many falsehoods in that article though... "the number of cars affected here represents about a third of the daily ridership of the Birchmount bus."
This section of the Gardiner actually carries over 100,000 vehicles/day compared to 11,000 for Birchmount (https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp), or about double the ridership King streetcar.

And there is this myth that road fees never go up, while license plate renewal, drivers license, vehicle permit fees, etc. are going up every year.
 
So many falsehoods in that article though... "the number of cars affected here represents about a third of the daily ridership of the Birchmount bus."
This section of the Gardiner actually carries over 100,000 vehicles/day compared to 11,000 for Birchmount (https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp), or about double the ridership King streetcar.

And there is this myth that road fees never go up, while license plate renewal, drivers license, vehicle permit fees, etc. are going up every year.

I'll agree with you that the comparison isn't the greatest seeing as the 5000 vehicles used is during rush hour and the Birchmount bus numbers are for daily ridership numbers. However your claim of 100, 000 vehicles/day is also false, the section of the Gardiner in question is by far the least used section of freeway in Toronto and is overbuilt. If rebuilt using the hybrid option it will continue that way for years to come.
 
I'll agree with you that the comparison isn't the greatest seeing as the 5000 vehicles used is during rush hour and the Birchmount bus numbers are for daily ridership numbers. However your claim of 100, 000 vehicles/day is also false, the section of the Gardiner in question is by far the least used section of freeway in Toronto and is overbuilt. If rebuilt using the hybrid option it will continue that way for years to come.

Well, it's actually higher than 100,000: https://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toronto/Transportation Services/Road safety/Files/pdf/24hourvolumemap2013.pdf
Of course it's overbuilt as it was designed to connect to a Lakeshore expressway that would go through Scarborough to connect to 401 and as a result it is rarely congested (which leads to an increase of transit nerds pretending to be clever by posting videos of free flowing traffic in this area). The city will probably reduce it to 3 lanes per direction when it is reconstructed as part of the future improvements.

This slide is also used quite frequently but is pretty disingenuous as it excludes the three on-ramps to EB Gardiner from downtown that would disappear if the Gardiner was removed. This traffic is conveniently ignored in the whole "commuters only going to downtown" scenario.
Traffic Slide.JPG
 

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The piece they are keeping? In your own figure it's 35,836 in one direction and 35,520 in the other - I wonder how much of that is traffic that doesn't have a destination or origin in/near downtown, and would use other routes through Toronto if there wasn't a through expressway.

You've included traffic that's on the Gardiner further west, and goes onto Lakeshore - which will have to exit the Gardiner at Cherry and use the new Lakeshore Boulevard.
 
The piece they are keeping? In your own figure it's 35,836 in one direction and 35,520 in the other - I wonder how much of that is traffic that doesn't have a destination or origin in/near downtown, and would use other routes through Toronto if there wasn't a through expressway.

You've included traffic that's on the Gardiner further west, and goes onto Lakeshore - which will have to exit the Gardiner at Cherry and use the new Lakeshore Boulevard.
The popular opinion on here is to tear down the Gardiner east of Jarvis...and the figure shows over 110,000 vehicles/day in the section east of Sherbourne. Could the local road network absorb those additional vehicles if the Gardiner is removed? Might have to start with thinking about taking out those bike lanes in Richmond/Adelaide to add east/west capacity.
 
The popular opinion on here is to tear down the Gardiner east of Jarvis...and the figure shows over 110,000 vehicles/day in the section east of Sherbourne. Could the local road network absorb those additional vehicles if the Gardiner is removed? Might have to start with thinking about taking out those bike lanes in Richmond/Adelaide to add east/west capacity.

The first assumption seems to be that the drivers who currently use the eastern Gardiner will continue to use their cars and find alternative routes in the vicinity, no matter how long driving takes. This seems debatable. The second assumption, which I guess is reasonable, is that neither DRL, RER nor SmartTrack will offer these drivers any alternative by the time the eastern Gardiner is torn down, because none of them will be constructed. Well maybe RER because it's Metrolinx, but the other two are in the hands of Council so it's reasonable to assume years of argument, the sacrifice of many cocktail napkins, and no progress. The final assumption is that the City is incapable of traffic demand management via tolls and parking surcharges - also reasonable in a suburb-dominated car-centric city I suppose. But it's a shame planning in Toronto is such a dysfunctional anachronism.
 
The popular opinion on here is to tear down the Gardiner east of Jarvis...and the figure shows over 110,000 vehicles/day in the section east of Sherbourne.
The number in the article you are challenging is the piece that's the hybrid. You can't dispute that number (which does appear accurate) by pointing to a different section.

Could the local road network absorb those additional vehicles if the Gardiner is removed?
That's what the 8-lane boulevard is for. Total traffic would reduce with the removal of induced demand, and also pushing those who can use the 401/427 as an alternative to use other options.

Would it be a bit slower - yes. Is it worth dropping a $billion to avoid making it a bit slower - probably not.
 
Not too sure why people want the boulevard stump when it is going to wind up as an at-grade speed zone. And an 8-lane boulevard is better? You make me laugh
 
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Hmm, long time no post.

1: Hybrid Option 3 approved by City Council on March 31, 2016.

2: Scoop: York-Bay-Yonge ramp replacement construction to start this summer: front page story here.

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Someone at city hall better read their memos. From this link

After Dividing For Decades, Highways Are On The Road To Inclusion

When the interstate highway system was built in the 1950s and 60s, it was hailed as a marvel of transportation technology, connecting cities and suburbs, and stitching the nation together. But it also divided the country. The highways slashed through countless neighborhoods, and leveled communities.

For years activists have pushed to alleviate those past divisions, and some of those efforts — from Syracuse to San Francisco to South Bronx — are now be paying off.

Anthony Foxx remembers riding his bike as a boy in the neighborhood in Charlotte, N.C, where his grandparents raised him. He couldn't get very far. Foxx, now U.S. secretary of transportation, said the neighborhood was cut off from the rest of the city by two interstate highways.

"I didn't realize it as a kid," Foxx told NPR, "I didn't think about it as economic barriers, psychological barriers but they were, and the choices of where that infrastructure was placed in my community as it turns out weren't unique to Charlotte."

In New York for instance, controversial planner Robert Moses was notorious for tearing up communities in the interests of the car, opposition be damned. In a 1959 speech, Moses asserted that "our categorical imperative is action to clear the slums and we cant let minorities dictate that this century old chore will be put off another generation or finally abandoned."

Foxx says the highway barriers created by Moses in New York and others elsewhere in the country were the result of deliberate decisions to route them through low income neighborhoods. Now, decades later, as infrastructure needs replacing or repairing, Foxx says there is an opportunity.

"The values of the 1950s are still embedded in our built environment and the prejudices. The notions of who's in or who's out are still part of the built environment, and we can do something about it."

One community where something may be done soon is in the Hunts Point section of the south Bronx.

It's a gritty neighborhood lined with small auto body shops and surrounded by waste transfer stations, and a major food distribution center. Trucks are a constant threat on the local streets.

Danny Peralta runs The Point, a non-profit youth group in the neighborhood. He says "its not uncommon for you to stand on any corner and not even be able to hear yourself think because of all of the diesel trucks coming in and out."

And there are expressways, including the Sheridan, a mile and a quarter long stub of a highway, built in 1963 and planned by Robert Moses. He displaced thousands of residents and several businesses to do it.

Moses' original intent was to extend the highway farther north, but that would have necessitated traversing the Bronx Zoo, and not even Moses had the political clout to pull that off.

The Sheridan is little used; Peralta showed me a photograph of community activists sitting on the empty highway during rush hour one afternoon. And it blocks people in the largely Hispanic neighborhood from new parks alongside the Bronx River, like Concrete Plant Park, a hidden slice of nature built on the site of an old, yes, cement plant.

Peralta guides us down a ramp into the park.

"It leads you to a little tranquil space. The birds are chirping, you may hear a little bit of the water moving. You definitely hear less of the traffic from that side. It's nice."

It is nice, but because of the expressway, few in the neighborhood go there. There is a bridge over the Sheridan, next to an elementary school. But Wanda Salaman, of the Bronx group Mothers on the Move, says its not a place you'd want your kids to go.

"This bridge kids call (it) the needle bridge, because it used to be dirty and have a lot of needles and stuff like that," Salaman says. She says the choice is either "you get hit by a truck" on the surface streets, or going over the bridge and "you see other crazy stuff."

It's taken nearly two decades to convince officials to do something about the Sheridan. Elena Conte of the Pratt Center for Community Development says that low income neighborhoods aren't viewed as worthy.

"We've seen that where there is a will there is absolutely a way," Conte says. "The reason there isn't a will is because communities of color and low income communities aren't valued in the same way that there counterparts in other parts of the city are."

But years of activism may have paid off. Earlier this month, the state of New York approved spending $97 million to convert the Sheridan expressway into a boulevard, with crosswalks and bike paths.

What's underway in the South Bronx is taking place in cities across the country. On Thursday, Foxx took part in a groundbreaking ceremony in Baltimore, where neighborhoods cut off by a highway project in the 1970s will be reconnected to the downtown.

Transportation Secretary Foxx says its not just about fixing roads, but righting past wrongs.
 
If the Gardiner was buried with the DRL through the city core, Lake Shore wouldn't need to be an 8 lane arterial. Three lanes in each direction would suffice. With new exits from the west Gardiner to Front St. and to Lake Shore at Strachan, we wouldn't need a major east-west roadway south of the train tracks, since the destination of most Gardiner drivers is the core north of the tracks.
 
If the Gardiner was buried with the DRL through the city core, Lake Shore wouldn't need to be an 8 lane arterial. Three lanes in each direction would suffice. With new exits from the west Gardiner to Front St. and to Lake Shore at Strachan, we wouldn't need a major east-west roadway south of the train tracks, since the destination of most Gardiner drivers is the core north of the tracks.
Wow, you're still going on and on about this unfeasible solution?
 
Just returned from Boston where they solved their downtown expressway issue the right way. The core of the city is reconnected to the North End with parks where an elevated expressway once stood and now lies hidden underground. We have an opportunity to do this much more cheaply than Boston's Big Dig with the construction of the DRL away from the water, but we're going to squander that opportunity and throw a billion at a lackluster Gardiner Hybrid and a sad attempt at a makeover of the elevated expressway with the Under Gardiner 'Bentway'. What a waste. In the end, that's what will separate Toronto from cities like Chicago, Boston, and Montreal: lack of vision, inability to think big, and a constant effort to do things on the cheap.
 

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