WislaHD
Superstar
He is welcomed to. He should work to get more people who would otherwise vote for hybrid on his side. Mammolitti? Karygiannis?
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
wopchop
Building Toronto
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
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- 7,451
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- Downtown Toronto, Ontario
For once lol.
Personally Wisla I want the whole Gardiner gone or keep it. Yes the whole highway. It's awful. And the next 3rd of it will have to go in 20 years anyway.
44 North
Senior Member
It may've been answered somewhere in the dozen or so pages this thread saw today, but will the road deck be narrowed with the Hybrid? I'm not talking about just a reduction in lanes, but rather an actual narrowing of the roadway portion of the structure like was shown months back with the rejected "Improve" option. I think there are still a lot of unknowns, and that we may very well see the debate held off for another few months.
And does anyone have any data or a breakdown of the types of vehicles on the Gardiner. E.g commuters, freight, buses, etc. The one in particular that I'd like to know are buses. How many buses, and how many riders on said buses?
And does anyone have any data or a breakdown of the types of vehicles on the Gardiner. E.g commuters, freight, buses, etc. The one in particular that I'd like to know are buses. How many buses, and how many riders on said buses?
WislaHD
Superstar
But driving through it is so awesome.
I would welcome piecemeal conversion to boulevard.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
But driving through it is so awesome.
I would welcome piecemeal conversion to boulevard.
Walking through it is even better.
Armour
Senior Member
Exactly. Walking gives people the necessary time to register their surroundings thoroughly, whereas driving is too rapid for anyone to really get a sense of what they're observing. The latter also explains why people like DMW, who drive everywhere, have no ability to appreciate nuance and fine details, because they drive through the city so fast, not taking notice of the public realm, and how poor it is, from an aesthetic point of view. Nor is it of any concern, because those kinds of people rarely experience it as pedestrians.
sixrings
Senior Member
Agreed it would be better down.... BUT... I am sure there are a lot of people like myself who would really be indifferent about if it stays up or goes down if the price was exactly the same. Because the Hybrid option costs $500 million more there are people like myself who then side with the boulevard. If there is this much outrage at an extra $500 million being spent on a small piece of highway how much outrage will there be at the bloor extension which will cost an extra $2-3 billion? Also why are suburb people attacking the removal as this highway as an attack on the suburbs but argue at the same time a DRL, which would benefit them the most, as ignoring them but helping the downtown rich (who will likely use it much less)?
A
arcum
Guest
The hybrid option is somewhat unclear regarding the actual lane configuration. It proposes to maintain the DVP ramps, but at the same time move the ramps to Lakeshore. This can't really work if the existing piers are maintained, or at least I have not seen any detailed design plans.
http://www.gardinereast.ca/sites/default/files//documents/Backgrounder for Gardiner EA -- Hybrid.pdf
A vehicle type breakdown is also unavailable, you might have better luck contacting the Gardiner east team. Based on the presentation material available, Waterfront Toronto is cherry picking to data to make it sound like only 5,200 vehicles will be affected in the AM peak hour, understating the true traffic impacts.
I'm really surprised council will have to make the decision based on such limited data.
Based on the UofT report that paints a grimmer picture than the Waterfront Toronto presentation, there are about 9% trucks which is about the norm for 400 series highways.
http://www.cp24.com/polopoly_fs/1.2363519!/httpFile/file.pdf
Steve Munro has a pretty good writeup: http://stevemunro.ca/2015/05/11/gardiner-east-conundrum/
When comparing the Waterfront Toronto traffic data from last year's analysis to this years:
Where the Remove (Boulevard) option was 10 minutes higher than the Maintain option in 2014, this difference has been wrestled down to only 3 minutes through design changes. This is rather difficult to believe given the relatively small portion of the Gardiner East that has been “tweaked” in 2015, and the study authors would have done well to explain this in greater detail. Their failure to do so, as in the 2014 report’s lack of detail, undermines the credibility of the Boulevard option.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
I just hope whatever design they go with that they include some breakdown lanes. Even with just keeping the existing structures (hopefully not), they can at least paint some breakdown lanes.
11th
Senior Member
The removal side has already accepted the reality of additional 10~15min delay, even though they keep telling others it's 3-min. Their answer now to those who complain is to "suck it up, it saves 500 million (over 100 years)".
Looking at the comparison of the studies in that writeup, it amuses me how when they were counting eastbound traffic, they included those coming from west of Dufferin, all the way to 427 - that has an effect of diluting the percentage of cars using eastern stretch of Gardiner.
Then when it comes to westbound, they only included those whose destinations are to the downtown core - which showed how majority of those using the Gardiner east is headed for the core (which is true), but they forgot to include those coming from the downtown core heading west of Dufferin.
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Grimace
Active Member
The point of the Eastern Gardiner traffic numbers is to show the traffic that uses the part of the highway that would be removed. Drivers from downtown core heading west to Dufferin will not be on the boulevard, they will be on the elevated Gardiner.
11th
Senior Member
I understand your point on the westbound numbers. I'm just saying how the numbers can be skewed by removal/addition of some numbers - I'm talking more about the eastbound numbers though.
WislaHD
Superstar
On the other hand, adding street capacity ends up increasing congestion, as Texans just found out recently:
http://www.planetizen.com/node/77888